So when does a trackday org really become a race org??

It might have happened the other way around too!

 

They paid back on all, experts got more than amatuers obviously but still, cash was cash and any back in my pocket was very nice!

 

And thats exactly how I used that series.

It was hard to beat, $175 for a track day and i think $20 per entry. I did the 600 and 1000 classes. You couldnt beat it. And the results were in RRW, too.

Im almost certain it hurt most race orgs. You had the track guys, loads of em, offset power bills and eveything and the guys that wanted the pointy end of the sword, got it. If it were still around like it was I’d probably do lots more racing. The cash prizes were nice. Actually came out +$20 one day

 

You're not gettin' it...I'm not talkin' about groups.
I'm sayin' that once a rider knows the track, then a clock makes sense when used in conjunction with coaching/schooling. Otherwise, what's the point of timing? Can you not see whether a rider should be bumped? It's a trackday, WTF does a lap time have to do with a rider that's not being coached where tracking said times can otherwise be a tool?

If you wanna talk groups, plenty of fast assholes that don't need to be cut loose until they gain experience in traffic. But, Catch 22, the way trackdays are run, they don't get that experience until they get bumped. It's ass-fucking-backwards. They need to be taught a shit-ton more than just how to go fast if they're gonna play on the same playground at the same time as the rider that's just lookin' to ride their own game regardless of the pace. You put them where their experience places 'em - not their times.
If an experienced rider would rather choose to ride in a lower group, then so be it, but don't give the next MGP wannabe any ammo to argue their case for a bump just cuz their times indicate a pace more suited to a higher group. Trackdays aren't about time, they're about sharing the track with like-skilled riders in a safer environment than the street. If people can't check their egos at the trackday gate, they need to go racing and have their ego handed to 'em.

Plain and simple, trackdays are not racing (where time matters) and the only part of the experience that could/should be geared towards racing is learning the track.

 

The lap timers are for monitoring purposes and training devices to improve the riders skill.

 

to an insurance underwriter, that means it is being timed. like I said... a GREAT BIG GRAY AREA. Ski

 

Exactly. I was kind of agreeing with you but being a timed event doesn’t mean a whole lot if you aren’t competing with lap times. I’m sure lawyers could fight it out forever and a year.

 

Dude, you are going way off on a tangent.

You actually made my/the point in your post., "trackdays are about sharing the track with like-skilled riders in a safer environment than the street". That is EXACTLY it...and the best metric for surrounding people with like-skilled riders is by how fast they are going.

Nobody said you have to race anyone, or push your ultimate limits, or try to win, or ride at 10/10ths all the time. If your normal race pace is a :35, but you want to ride around at a :50 just to have fun and enjoy the sun on your bike, by all means go for it. That is great. But you should do so in a group where other people are also running :50's. That is the whole point.

Nobody said you cant have coaching, or you can't learn the track, or you have to race, or any of the other shit you are talking about. They don't care *why* someone is running a :45. It doesn't matter if they are learning the track, or learning a new bike, etc. The reason is irrelevant. The fact is that they are running a :45, and should be surrounded with other people running :45's. That is the safest way to handle things. It doesn't matter if someone has years of experience, if they are circulating 15sec off pace, then they don't need to be in Advanced (and vice versa).

The kind of shit you are talking about is what schools are for. There are some trackdays that actually offer Coaching (STT), but typically speaking that isn't the case. People can't go to TDs expecting 1-on-1 coaching on every aspect of their riding throughout the day. If that is what people want, then the cost of track days will quadruple, and the groups will be cut in half because the other half will need to be all Coaches.

 

You of all people can't start a reply with, "Dude you're going way off on a tangent"
Especially then to write that reply

 

Lap times are most definitely relevant. It’s the one component that is hard data. Ultimately, it really is about lap times. It’s the ultimate measure of a riders ability.

With this being said it is only one component used for rider classification. I would say to any and all riders that if you are serious about improving your riding skill level, you need a lap timer. How else are you going to gauge your progress?

One item of note and the topic of rider classifications. Any trackday org worth their salt can very easily see which riders belong or don’t belong in a certain group. It only takes one session to see the outlayers in the group. There were times I would participate in other orgs trackdays and be placed in their middle group. No problem, I just go out and ride the part and demonstrate my ability and get bumped. I never asked for the bump, I just rode the part, moved thru to the pointy end of the group and stuck to the CR like glue. No big whoop.

 

haha... reminds me of speedy e's story when he had to "urn the bump"

 

I'll take a slower, but consistent (lines, on/off throttle/brakes) rider ANYDAY over a faster rider that's all over the freakin' place! Don't care what the closing speed.... I'm paying attention!

Seen so many Int & Ex that sweep the turns (far inside to far outside etc.) that I wanna put a broom on front of thier bike!! Granted those faster riders doing that are still learning. And, they learn more in the pits when I tell'em to stop doing that.... and here's why! : )

 

What you're saying to me is that I, on a 1000, turnin' 10-15 seconds or more faster per lap over an otherwise equally skilled rider on their li'l ol' Hawk, would see that other rider bumped down a group where they would be subjected to passing rules and the sketchy, unpredictable egos trying to outride their classification for a bump? Tell me how that clock works again...I'm not gettin' it. It certainly doesn't put that Hawk rider in with the appropriate skill level, making the Hawk rider have to do the riding for those around him to stay safe. There is zero fun nor appreciation for that situation.

 

If the guy on the Hawk was equally skilled, he wouldn't be running 10-15 seconds slower than you. Unless we are racing on NASCAR tracks, I don't know of a track where a Liter bike is 15 seconds faster by default. If the bike won't allow him to go faster, that is his problem, not everyone elses.

If he is running :50's, and is in a group with other riders doing :50's, then he would be surrounded by relatively equally skilled riders, running relatively equal lap times. He may be extracting more performance out of his Hawk than the other riders are extracting out of their modern supersports, but that doesn't change the fact that they are all running the same lap times.

Like I said, in some orgs 250's are not allowed in Advanced, regardless of the rider. It doesn't matter if the guy is an Expert multi-Champion, if he is only running :50's (whether it is his fault or the bike's fault), then he doesn't need to be on track surrounded by riders running 15sec faster per lap.

You talk about subjecting someone to unpredictable passing, or having to "do the riding for others in order to stay safe", what do you think everyone else has to do when that Hawk rider is placed in Advanced, even though he is 15 seconds off pace? It goes both ways.

He is an unexpected rolling chicane, and the entire group is forced to make questionable passes at inopportune times to get around him, only because his ego wouldn't let him ride in a lower group with people who are running the same lap times as him. He feels he is "too skilled" to be in that lower group, even though he is running the same damn lap times as the people in that lower group.

It seems to me like Hawk guy is the one that needs to check his ego.

He chose to ride a slow bike that is incapable of running true Advanced lap times. That was his decision. So the other 30 riders in Advanced should be subjected to a rolling chicane, just because he chose to ride a slow bike and/or feels he is "too skilled" for Intermediate?

 

I agree. And while some people seem to be focusing on the lap times as an absolute, I specifically stated when someone is questionable or "on the bubble", then it comes down to a Coach's evaluation. I also said if someone manages to squeeze in a single flyer while riding at 10/10ths that barely breaks the threshold of the next group, then no...they don't need to be bumped.

Lap times is a good way of picking out the sore thumb. If someone is consistently running slower or faster than everyone else in the group, then they should be moved in the interests of safety. It really is that simple.

 

You over-estimate the capabilities of a Hawk compared to modern machinery. It's slower than an SV.
And no, an advanced rider should be predictable and running consistent lines regardless of bike size or speed. That is easily accommodated by any other advanced rider at any speed.

 

Lol....Broome.... Where's you're "not this shit again" meme. I love that.

Personally, I'd rather be in a group with a bunch of guys who know what they are doing in all sorts of traffic. Rather than guys who can run a specific lap time first. I'd rather be with Rossi on a ninjette, than cletis on his r1 as a first pick. But I guess it comes down to what works for each org. And this is why I don't do open track days.

 

I don't know anything about a Hawk. But if it simply cannot run within 15 seconds of a typical Advanced pace, then it shouldn't be in Advanced.

We aren't talking about Expert racers in an Endurance race. We are talking about expecting 30-40 track day guys, in a group, to be able to regularly deal with someone riding 15sec off pace, and possibly 50mph slower, as they encounter him at regular intervals which may include blind spots.

Personally, if I knew I was a very good rider, then I would rather be the one "in control". I would rather surround myself with guys running similar lap times, that way I am the one doing the passing...rather than expecting relatively inexperienced guys to work their way around me, over and over, lap after lap.

 

At some point speed differential has to be part of the equation, no doubt.

 

I assure you, an advanced rider on a Hawk isn't being passed by 30-40 intermediates and/or beginners. There may be a handful or two of intermediates on much bigger bikes capable of doing it but, now with passing rules, the rider being passed during some section of track where passing is "allowed" has to deal with that guy not making the pass successfully. Consider that the Hawk rider ain't slowin' down for the turn while Mr. Intermediate is panicking that he won't make the turn cuz he felt he had to force a pass and is now going too fast for himself - not an issue for an advanced rider, but goddammit, why should the Hawk rider have to avoid this panic-braking potential yard sale of intermediate riders?
I've seen it enough times, passing zones are BS...and to expect an advanced rider to not only subject himself to that idiocy but also the idiots trying to work that passing zone? I just gotta ask, what_ are_ you_smoking? Seriously, dude, you're promoting an unsafe protocol.

Look at it from another angle...
You and all the other advanced riders are on Hawks turnin' :50s. One beginner is on a whizbang 1000 turning :50s. Do you want him on track with you? Do you want to be on track with him, wondering whether he's gonna brake-check that next turn, cut across your bow to make the turn in point he didn't plan ahead for, etc., etc., etc.?
You're outta your mind if you pay to ride that scenario.