So when does a trackday org really become a race org??

What about a rider who is riding the line, not being hairball, is consitant, and still running 15 seconds off the aggregate pace?

 

But no one has stated that a riders group determination is based on running a specific lap time first.

 

Sounds like they're exhibiting proper on-track behavior. I ride with them all the time without issue. Regardless of speeds/closing speeds, it's the "other riders that don't have a clue" that create issues.

 

Why are we having a theoretical discussion about some hypothetical Expert Racer who shows up for track days on an old-ass bike that 99% of the people currently doing track days has never heard of?

We will let Mr. Hawk work shit out for himself.

For everyone else riding in reality, lap times is a good metric for setting up groups. That isn't hypothetical, or a "proposed unsafe protocol", that is a fact. I have personally seen it done successfully on multiple occasions with multiple orgs.

The thing is, every org does it based on lap times (whether it is stated that way or not). Nobody needs to be in a group riding 15 seconds off pace. It is about safety, speed differential, and enjoyment for everyone. If someone sticks out as being too slow or too fast, they are moved to a different group. The only difference with some orgs is that they actually put a numerical value on that "too slow" or "too fast" to help people judge which group they should probably be in. Then anomalies are handled on a case by case basis during the weekend.​

 

I have to ask, how many track day events have you managed?
How many trackday events have you CRd or instructed?

 

What do you mean by "don't have a clue"?

 

That is exactly the point I was getting at.

The entire group of 30-40 other riders are forced to deter from the race line and ride unexpectedly to account for that one dude who decided to show up on a bike that is too slow to keep pace, but has too big of an ego to ride in a slower group. So instead, he trolls around in Advanced (regardless of how skilled/smooth/consistent he is) forcing everyone else to account for him being drastically off pace, lap after lap, all weekend.

Sounds to me like Mr. Hawk is the exception that needs to check his ego, rather than negatively impacting everyone else's weekend because he chose to ride a slow fucking bike.

 

Dude, hate to tell you but the rider who is riding 15 seconds off the pace is who is creating the issue.

 

Yep.

Its like the person driving 60mph in the left hand lane on the interstate. They are probably a very good driver, very smooth and experienced at driving, but they are too damn slow to be where they are.

That isn't a knock on their driving ability. They might be great at driving. Hell it might be a F1 Champion that is testing out a new Smart Car which can't go faster than 60mph. The reason for their slower speed doesn't matter. That doesn't change the fact that he is the exception who is going slower than everyone else, and he is the one causing the issue.

He can go slower if he wants, but he needs to do it in the appropriate place so he isnt creating such a speed differential with the majority.

 

I've never managed a trackday event...only witnessed the carnage of laptime placement vs experience.
I don't have a count of the number of events I've CR-ed or classrooms I've instructed, but I did it for a year with Reduc at all their events in '02 and the latter half of '01. If it matters, I followed that up with a very successful '03 season with WERA and subsequent endurance racing in '05 and '06. I currently cornerwork for CSS...been doing that gig across an hundred events over the years, starting in '02.
(I took a six year break from riding '06-'12.)

I get what's being said, I just don't agree with it. I think there's a better way and it's relative to ability more so than a timed performance. Given that a trackday is open to the general public, I have strong reservations about mixing experience levels, which is what I'm talking about. Speed may have experience as a prerequisite, but not necessarily the other way around. I've dealt with the "advanced rider" that doesn't hold their line or the rider that attempts to force an illegal pass, but hey, if you're opposed to my view, you're opposed to my view. I don't/won't ride with an org that places riders based on speed, predominately. I have yet to crash at a trackday event that wasn't mechanical, or be crashed by an inexperienced rider at a trackday - tho' I have avoided numerous situations they have caused.

What I meant by "don't have a clue" is pretty much summed up with a lack of traffic flow experience and the ability to control the bike and themselves in that traffic. It happens at every event, racing included. Those riders are either the perp, the victim or both.

It could be argued, "How does the faster rider gain experience in passing if they don't get bumped?", and that's exactly MY point. There should be full track passing in all groups, restricted by distance alone. Passing "too close for your group" as opposed to "in the wrong place" is the difference. Where the latter creates issues, the other creates the necessary learning experience for advancement.

 

I didn't say anyone did. What I in essence said was I'd rather ride in a group that puts skill over lap times.

 

Same as at the races.

 

What about when ahrma racers show up at a non-ahrma race and do 1 minute + slower laptimes in a race than everyone else? Do they ever get flagged off in WERA? Not busting balls.....im just wondering

 

I would hope that and that they're charged double. In all honesty, I think ahrma has some of the fastest guys racing with them, and some of the slowest most erratic. But hey, if you're up front, who cares. ;-)

 

I assumed AHRMA was all about doing parade laps after several races with quite a few guys from there doing weekend passes.

 

When you're riding a $60k Seeley framed 7r, what do you expect. ;-) Tilghman is fast. If you want "modern" fast, mark heckles has been riding stuff for giannini. Cr750 that was Curt liebmans original hrc kitted one. And he was riding an sp2 this weekend.

 

Going back to this post, (that kind of started the laptime debate). It's not really wrong, but it probably needs some context. For the same reason that you describe, I ran a lap timer more when I would CR for Pete's trackdays than when I was racing, and I'd usually babysit the Int group. My general plan was to do an A session or two in the morning and afternoon to see how the groups looked. Then I'd be able to make a more accurate judgement call rather than strictly rely on laptimes. I'd also bring a SV and an R6. The SV was good for cranking out cheap laps without destroying tires or gas. The R6 was good if the groups or myself were feeling a bit more lively. That said, my cutoffs overlapped. Taking the same Barber example, most of the population in A was ~1:35-1:45, while the population in Int was more like 1:40-1:50. Of course there were some outliers, and the populations shifted depending on weather, time of day, and who showed up. But, on average, that was my observation. A WERA expert on an SV who is doing laps 1:42 range belongs in A unless there are a bunch of pros doing sub 1:30s. At the same time, I'd keep a guy on a 1000 doing the same 1:42 times in Int. Bikes like Hawks and motards would probably be subject to the same time expectations, meaning I wouldn't really go much lower than 1:45. Obviously a place like Road Atlanta would be more strict (with bigger speed gaps)

We can also agree on 250s. I didn't like them in SV money races (as both an SV and a 250 rider), much less on the same track as a 1000.

Also, so I'm not completely off topic, IIRC Jennings doing the mock races for a very long time. You probably couldn't pay me to do them.

 

Then why show up at an actual race event? If thats ahrma's thing,im totally cool with it and think it would be fun to do eventually. But bringing vintage bikes out to ride around just because its "class legal" and being a life or death safety hazzard is no longer a good thing. Nobody should be lapped 3-4 times in a sprint.

 

Yeah....I dunno. There was a jaw dropping drixton frame 350 aermacchi with ihro stickers on the fairing. It ran away from roper on his. Pit that against someone who's out for thier first weekend you can see why people get lapped. I've lapped people twice in one race and while I was quick enough, there were people way faster. I never had a problem with either situations.

I think with the vintage classes, at least the early ones, you gotta keep your head out there a little and realize there are guys who are in there 60s and 70s out there to have fun. It's vintage racing after all. Plenty of guys out there with the trophies, resumes, xrays, and scars who don't need to add to them.

 

Btw....I agree with you. Ive also never heard of anyone actually intentionally going out to parade. As far as I know, pretty much everyone is riding at thier own limits.