Right to die, obligation to live

Yeah, I've heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls, I've read the Bible (not cover-to-cover, I admit, and while I'd like to I just can't justify wasting the time to do it), and I've had the full-on Catholic indoctrination as a child so I know a bit about the other side of the fence.

I don't buy it. Sorry. Glad you do. I hope it works for you. It doesn't work for me as I need evidence and not "trust me."

As for Science being based upon "faith," Jesus get over yourself already. Science is based upon hundreds of billions of man-hours labored by millions of people over thousands of years. Now supposedly ALL of these folks were anti-christianity crusaders with a deep, secret agenda. It's also pretty impressive that you've managed to review the sum total of human scientific knowledge, complete with all the lab work and repeating the experiments, and deemed it all to be non-pursuasive at the least or an outright fraud at the most. While the Biblical version, complete with no supporting evidence whatsoever, is accurate without any shred of doubt.

And I never claimed to be a near-death expert, I just stated my own experiences and what I've read on it. And if the good doctor you mention claims that brains are stopped during surgery, I really don't need to read his book because he's a quack. At least according to the cardiologists that Mad Brad works with and I have faith both in their opinions and his relaying of those opinions. See, I DO have faith.

Tex, sorry if you took the "you" in my post to mean you personally and not the generic "you" as that was not my intention. You DO sound like a guy who actually practices what he preaches and that's a rare and admirable thing. My point was more to do with the positions of the Religious Right who frequently claim that you've got to be a God-fearing Bible-thumper in order to live a moral life and that without God people would just degenerate into a free-for-all. I should have been more clear. But I didn't want to write a book (too late, I know) and that's what you get when you cut corners.

Beyond that, Roger summed it up quite nicely for me.

Now to drag this back on-topic, I had a thought last night on how Papa can achieve his goal.

OK, first off, start flinging some paint on canvas and dictating all those wonderful rants of yours into a book. Between the book and painting sales, you'll become fabulously wealthy. Now with that newfound wealth, have a plane converted to fly with no hand controls and get your pilot's license again.

Then, on your maiden flight, after doing the talk show rounds and other inspirational speaking engagements, you can auger that sucker into the ground and achieve your goal and make some political statement while your at it.

 

Let me try again then. Unprovable assumptions are not the same thing as faith. It is impossible to prove that decay rates don't change yet if you ever find evidence that they do then you change your model. There has been no evidence or serious reason to believe that decay rates change because radiometric dating is compared to other methods of dating...tree rings, ice core samples, geologic stratification, etc. They all fit together well enough that the decay assumption stands up to the evidence.

Faith, by definition, does not rely on evidence.

I'm not sure what you believe but if you are a young earth creationist who believes that the earth is only 6 to 10 thousand years old, do you seriously believe there is no evidence to refute this? Don't get me wrong, there are many Christians who have no problem with an old earth. Which are you?

Also, is your faith based on the evidence? If you found strong evidence that a literal genesis creation story interpretation is not accurate , would your faith in Christ change? I would hope not, since many Christians have no problem with a less than literal interpretation of the old testament.

 

What MTK and Thuxley said, as they said it better and more politely than I!

And t316, sorry for the rant but you just pushed some of my buttons.

But many of us are still waiting for your theory about dinosaurs.

Rodger

 

And what Brad said too!

Rodger

I love agreeing with Brad. . . it makes me feel so. . . so. . . DIRTY!!!

 

No hard feelings, its actually been interesting sharing views. It was the same narrow minded Bible-thumping zealots that turned me off to God for so long...How could they not. It's like the girl in the mall insisting that you try her new fragrence, the more she pushes, the further and faster you walk away.

Time to share since we are all buddies again.

The guy who got me thinking about religion was a buddy who I grew up getting in trouble with. He was cool for sure, fonzie cool. He met a girl (yeah yeah) and just started looking into God via her. Something snapped in him, and I watched a good friend turn his life around 180 degrees. He never preached, he avoided the "new Christian" lectures...he just lived his life different and by looking at him you could tell he was truly happy for the first time in a long time. The thing that got me, that really made me think, was that he was still cool. He figured it out, and didn't need to step on anyones toes to get there. But he was quick to talk if you'd listen. I knew him before and after, and most people don't get that opportunity with Christians they meet. It took me a few years to figure it out, but I learned a valuable lesson through him. I'll never stop witnessing, but I'll always do it in a style that suits my audience.

Guess I thump to a different beat.

When folks ask you about God just say..."Man, there are so many of those wackos that just turn me off to the whole thing, then there is this wacko named Tex..."

About science...

Science rocks. Scientists Rock. There are very few scientific LAWS, but lots of theories. Gravity is a LAW, it is undisputable. Evolution is a theory, it is ongoing and new discoveries are always made in that field. I believe animals evolve, you'd be a fool not to, plants evovle as well. Evolution is undeniable, it happens. That doesn't mean I believe we all sprang from single cell beings in a hot pond. If scientists showed me a single cell that without intervention could become millions of different animals I might look further into it. Funny thing is, even when I was anything but a Christian that idea still seems as far fetched as it does today. Maybe I am capable of logic. :

 

Here is some good reading from link

Do all those who kill themselves go to Hell?

Some people believe that all who commit suicide go immediately to Hell. However, the Bible never says if this is the case. The Bible is silent on this issue. God probably did not address it in black in white for a good reason. If we knew that we would still go to Heaven if we killed ourselves, there would probably be a lot more suicides taking place than there already are. However, if we knew that all who killed themselves were automatically banished to Hell, no matter what their situation, it may be too much for the grief-stricken family and friends to bear. Murder and suicide are not unpardonable sins. The only unforgivable sins are rejecting Christ (Mark 16:16) and blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

I'm still learning, and I don't deny that sometimes things are interpreted and taught based on "it's always been that way."

My wife and I had a good discussion about this last night, and while I parrot what I've heard via church in regards to the subject, it dawned on me that I never really took the time to look into it in depth. Never had a reason to.

As I continue to search and ask questions, I'll relay what I find here.

 

Roger Doyle- I also apologize for my rant, a lot of my buttons have been pushed too.

As far as the dinosaurs, where in the Bible does it say "there were never any dinosaurs"? I know I never said it.

I'm still waiting on your "evolution in the lab" proof.

mtk- You wrote "Science is based upon hundreds of billions of man-hours labored by millions of people over thousands of years."

Wow, I thought that the scientific method had only been around a couple of hundred years. Is there any way you can show me the documentation for that statement? You know, like caveman- scientist time-cards or something?

I don't recall writing that the cardiologist that wrote "To Hell and Back" saying anything about brain function. I'm sure he adresses it in his book. Maybe you should read it before being so quick to dismiss it. Or maybe that would also be a waste of your time.

thuxley- if there were strong evidence that Biblical writings were in fact based on truth, would your lack of faith in Christ change?
I could spend a lot of time rebutting the "carbon dating" method, but would it do any good? There is evidence that carbon decay rates have changed throughout history, if you like I can supply the papers, although it will take some time. It's a fact that there still remains an imbalance in c14/c12 atmospheric balance, that should be an impossibility if the earth were millions of years old. bla, bla, bla...
Like I asked before, will it make any difference in your view?

Max- I apologize to you, I probably did take your Spongebob analogy a little bit too seriously, I know you're a good man and that you want to do the right thing, which is a lot more that I can say about a lot of Christians that I know. Spongebob is a great guy, I love his show.

To all- I hope that I haven't come across caustic or too facetious, I know I can be sarcastic with the best of them. I know that my "science is a joke" was inappropriate, science has done many wonderful things for all of us. I respect all of your beliefs and viewpoints, I hope that you will do the same for me and a lot of others here on this board.

I believe a group hug would be appropriate at this time. (sniff/sniff)

 

I am sorry if that is what you have perceived. But that is not true.

I am playing the Devil's Advocate, and just getting information from "smarter than average" guys like Jay and Tex and GOrilla. You gotta have a catalyst to get the info flowin, so to speak...

I have hung out with thousands of racers (never mind non racers) who frequent this board, and I can assure you, I have never ridiculed any of them about their faith, or anyone else's in faith, in front of them, or behind their backs.

If anyone thinks I have personally attacked their faith, I apologize again.

 

Well thuxley, since we've chatted before on the subject, you know I tend to somewhat believe in the young earth theories. That's what they are- theories. Where is the absolute evidence that these are impossibilities? It really doesn't even matter to me, as I'm confident I'll know the truth one day, and maybe say, "hmmpf! So THAT'S how you did that", or "so I crashed that day for THAT reason". Maybe I won't even feel the need to say anything. And let me back up if I've EVER given anyone the impression that I was "holier than thou". We are all sinners who deserves hell, but by God's grace I believe we are given the chance to spend eternity in heaven.

And in reference to your earlier post, I do love you. When I look at any person, I try to think of them as a person for whom Christ shed his precious blood to save. This is particularly hard for me to do when driving in Atlanta!

I am curious about you, thuxley. I know that Papa, Max, Rodger, and mtk have an affiliation to the sport of roadracing, beyond that of a fan. You, on the other hand, come to a roadracing board and do not appear to even have an interest in roadracing, other than racers' opinions on religion and politics. I did a search of all your posts and could not find a single post by you on any subject that had anything to do with racing. So I ask, isn't there another board that deals specifically with these topics that would offer better dialogue on these subjects? Again, just curious as to why you spend so much time and energy here, on the WERA board.

 

I've got a nickel that says were are all lab rats in an experiment that will some day be published in a science journal. I can see it now...

thuxley: "So I'm pretending to be this gay guy on a racing board to study the habits of machismo racers and their views on homosexuality, religion, and selling penske shocks for less"

associate: "really, how'd it go?"

Thuxley: "not bad really, I learned lots. but it went south when I started thinking of Max's new hair while I was making love to my wife"

associate: "bummer."

Thuxley: "yeah...oh well, maybe I'll go to the quilting forum and pretend to be against medicaid."

 

If you can convince me that it is reasonable to believe that all dating methods are so seriously flawed and that there is more evidence that the earth is much younger than the billions of years old , then I would change my belief that the earth was old. Would it make me believe that Christ was God incarnate? No, that would not be enough evidence. I accept people have faith and that faith needs no evidence. There is NOTHING WRONG WITH FAITH. Some of my best friends have it. I do not believe it is possible to prove that God does not exist or that Christ is not God. My biggest problem is when people of faith attempt to use physical evidence to justify their beliefs because they, by definition, accept the truth of their beliefs first and then look for the evidence to support it. A scientific view starts with the evidence and builds from there. Science requires scepticism, religious belief tolerates it to a point but ultimately requires that pure faith supercedes it.

I believe Carbon dating is only useful for ages of 40,000 years or less anyway. Lets say you convince me that it is totally unreliable, are you then going to try to convince me that Potassium Argon dating with a half life of 1.2 billion years is completely flawed as well?

I'm game.. why don't you explain in your own words why radiometric dating can not be used to date the earth (or that there is strong evidence that the earth is young, which I'm guessing you believe) and I'll try to explain why it can and why the earth is most probably billions of years old. Maybe we ought to move it over to a new thread though.

 

Yes, there are plenty of other boards. I try not to start threads and only respond when others bring up the subjects that interest me. I try not be insulting, though I'm sure I fail at times. If Mongo would like all non-racers to stop posting, I would gladly comply. If Mongo would like me specifically to stop posting because he finds my posts offensive, I would comply. I have asked my racer friends it they object to my posts or wish I would stop ...they have told me no. As to why I spend as much time as I do: I find certain topics on this board fascinating and always have. I read 100x more posts than I ever respond to. Though I'm curious why all this matters to you, I hope this has satisfied some of your curiosity.

 

This is what I've been trying to say but, didn't do to well Thanks Tex.

 

You win. I owe you a nickel.

 

The Scientific Method, yes, but that wasn't what I said, now was it? I said "Science," as in the pursuit of scientific knowledge. You can go back to Da Vinci, Gallileo (sp?), and many, many others. The folks who invented the sciences of mathematics, chemistry, biology or physics. The sum of human knowledge is built upon the foundations laid by these people. The most recent developments in genetic engineering all owe a debt to the first person to come up with organic chemistry. And so on for other fields. All of that work, over all of that time, by all of those different people, would have to be considered suspect and biased in order to discount evolution or an old earth. Hell, the "old earth" theory is pretty well proven in my mind since the Hubble telescope has taken photographs of solar systems developing according to the theories previously developed.

 

I have to say even though this is going nowhere as usual, this probably is the least intolerant debate on religion I have seen on the board. Anyway, maybe I will write a book as MTK suggested. By the time it's done, there should be an airplane available that can fly high enough that I can go verify whether there is someone up there or not.

 

Allright, you imposter, who are you, and what have you done with PAPA!!!!


or

Get to breast feed on Nurse Hottie this morning, Papa???

 

No-no-no. You've got me wrong. There's nothing wrong with you being on this board or posting. I was just asking, as you said before that you don't race or have any vested interest in WERA racing. I just wondered what the draw was. No one's asking you to go away. You're just kinda like the guy who shows up to play basketball with a badminton raquet in your hand. And if Mongo asked all non-racers to stop posting, he would have to stop, too! As for being insulting, naw. Condescending? Yep. Who are your racer friends, btw? Maybe if they know me, they could tell you I'm an okay guy (for a Christian).

 

Who is intolerant? I really haven't seen this at all on this thread. All I've seen is a bunch of folks defending their own views. As for the aircraft thing, Boeing has the Sonic Cruiser thing on the back burner. Unless JetBlue or SouthWest are looking into them, I doubt it will be built. If you want any info on anything aircraft related, you know my email.

 

hey! thumper!! wake up!! Get your head out of the Old Testament!! he said "least intolerant".

Freakin' Christers! Jeeeesh!!



Rodger