Right to die, obligation to live

My computer is fully operational again so as promised, I am starting my series of controversial topics.

What is everyone's opinion on a persons right to end their own life? This is something I have had a lot of time to think about since the racing accident that left me paralyzed a year ago. I have discussed this with a number of people including Mad Brad Wilson, Dutch, Dave K., Tex and Mongo. The topic came back again with the recent deaths of a couple of racers, one of whom was my friend. I have heard a number of things ranging from "I wish the accident would have killed you" to "I know it's selfish but I would rather have amongst us." Opinions vary greatly on the topic. It seems that the majority of our society feels that a person does not have ownership of their life. This is reflected by the laws, which make euthanasia illegal in most countries I know of.

I suppose this illegality is a direct consequence of religious beliefs, as are laws against abortion, stem cell research, or gay marriages. For months after my accident, I used to say I would not wish paralysis on my worst enemy. There are very few people I hate (although there are many I dislike) and most are probably lawmakers. And this girl I was dating when I was 19 who still has not gotten over getting dumped. Coincidentally, she threatened suicide. But I digress. I have found myself listening to lawmakers and thinking "maybe he could use some paralysis for a while so he can reevaluate his opinion on stem cell research." Or "maybe he needs to get raped and impregnated so he can think about abortion from a different perspective." But again, I digress. My beef today is with anybody who tells me it is not a person' s right to end their own life. Unless you have the ability to get into a person' s head, what gives you the authority to say they have to deal with their life? I am not talking about pimple-faced teenagers who want to die because of a breakup even though they have unlimited potential for a great life. I am talking about mature adults who have had time to evaluate their goals in life and their chances of achieving those goals. If those goals become unattainable because of an irreversible event, and other alternatives are undesirable, what is the point of being miserable for years? In the end, we are all going to die anyway. Unless there is something I don't know. I can accept "I want you to live for selfish reasons" but I cannot tolerate "committing suicide is wrong because the - fill in your favorite religious book - said it's wrong."

In case that wasn't clear, I would have checked out a long time ago if I could use my hands. Well, then again if I could move my hands maybe I would think differently about what's worth going through and what isn't. Anyway, the debate is open. Just don't try to "save my soul." I could get nasty.

 

I would not try to save your soul. I don`t have that arguement in me. You wouldn`t have bought into it pre-June 2002 anyway.

 

I can't think of any logical reason to require someone who wants to die to stay alive. All of the reasons I've heard to legislate against Dr. Kevorkian or the like have been rather hysterical or carrying fundamentalist overtones. People are afraid of death, and seem to think that it's the worst thing that can happen to a person. As you indicate, death probably isn't the worst thing that can happen.

The moral/ethical dilemmas are what trip up anyone who tries to think about it rationally. Most suicides are for purely selfish reasons, and greatly affect (in a very negative way) the people around the suicide.

OTOH there are situations such as yours where the line between what is right and wrong, and what is good and not good for others becomes unclear. Then we start treading into very strange terrority - if you had the means, I suspect you probably would choose to terminate yourself. You don't, which means someone would have to do it for you. When does assisting a friend cross the line and become murder? It's a legal dilemma. It's an ethical dilemma. Even worse might be nagging, lingering guilt for the person who helps you. What if someone were to assist you now, yet in a few years medical science discovers something that could have helped you, if only you were still alive? Man, as hard-hearted as I can be sometimes even I am not sure I could deal with something like that.

I guess it boils down to this - a mature, healthy person's life is his own, more or less. Someone who is not mature or not healthy does not have control over his life. Is that fair? In some situations, yes. In every situation? No. But how to tell?

 

Are you speaking of someone taking their own life, or of someone taking someone elses life for them..... In the case of taking your own life, I am guessing there are few few laws in the books about this because of the aparent inability to enforce it (i.e. how do you punish someone who takes their own life?)....in the case of taking someone's life for them, the laws against it are probably in place because it is almost impossible to determine if someone else should die or not, you simply cannot get enough information about their situation, mental ability, past experiences, etc. that is debatable but I will leave it there as my opinion......

 

This is a topic that goes over and over and over in my head. I've discussed this topic with a few friends I've known for years and some I've met through the BBS.

My opinion of the moment: It's a highly personal decision for that person and should be avoided, but I'll support your decision. If there truly is no way out and you've thought about it and what it'll do to your friends and family then I'll support "your" decision.

 

What if your desire to go is clearly documented. Suppose you make a videotape, and get the professional opinion you need to prove that the brain is functioning properly. If a friend helps you, are they doing something wrong? A

 

Ooops, well I guess that answers my question on the other thread...

Papa, you have a (fortunately) rare perspective on this subject. That no one would dispute. And it is a perspective that I just do not have. However, I hope my perspective can add to this discussion.

Perspective is a funny thing though. A double edged sword of sorts. It can expand our horizons to understand a thing, but it can also cloud our understanding and limit our vision. I believe it is in the questions of perspective that a lot of the controversy can be found on the subject of suicide. The first question that you have to ask yourself is: Can any person, separate from maturity, background or reason, can rationally make the decision to commit suicide if they have the perspective that makes suicide seem desirable? Does the very desire indicate that the person is no longer able to make rational decisions? Or can suffering or limitation be quantified such that there is no question of perspective?
The viewpoint that no one can rationally choose suicide drives many that have written laws on the subject, though not all. Quite often laws are written against suicide merely to give law enforcement the option of physically preventing someone from doing it without opening themselves to lawsuits. This is of course especially useful when you are talking about the "pimple-faced teenagers" who would honestly not want to die if given the opportunity.
And of course we're not talking about something you can say "oops" to. No take backs here. In matters of life and death, it is not strange to write laws and enforce conduct that errs on the side of life, but yet limits freedom. Now I certainly think there are lots of laws that go too far - usually those that involve non-mind altering behavior that only increases risk.
I'm not sure any one contemplating suicide can ever think out the ramifications far enough to make a wise decision to commit. Like "It's A Wonderful Life", how can we know what changes our absence will cause? How much pain will it inflict on our loved ones? I know my best friend Doug never thought it out that far. I saw the police lights flickering over his car, and I sat with his mother that night. Perspective.

Papa, I only barely knew you from lurking on the board. Since your accident I have been honored to meet you and to make many new friends from those I met who rallied to your side. For one I am very glad you are still here.
Just my perspective.

 

My father had always said he was a DNR, but as his life was ending he changed that. But when he was really sick and it was time, at his request they stopped his plethora of heart meds and quit fighting--he was gone in 24 hours.

I support a person's right to die. My only fear of assisted suicide is the outside chance it could be used for convenience (getting a confused or depressed person to sign just to get them out of the way). With the right checks & balances the sytem would be fine.

For example, I've always considered my pets like my children. I've had to put two of them down and it's nearing time for another. If they were in the wild, none of them would have lived nearly as long. Euthanasia is a painful experience, but it's the price we pay for domesticating a once-wild animal. When my babies were old, sick, and suffering, we both knew it was time to say goodbye--it hurt like hell but I did it as an act of love. It wasn't premature, I don't believe in killing them because their med costs get high in old age. I think this same thing can be for humans as well. People fight to hang on, but when they are tired and and hurting and want to go--let them if they choose.

 

Well I have personally dealt with more than the average amount of suicides of friends and family. The argument that most are for selfish reasons is not accurate in my experience although many could interpret it that way.

Personally I feel that a person should be able to end their on life. Kervorkian didn't kill anyone... just gave them a simple means of doing it themselves(can obviously be argued given the laws). I don't have a problem with what the Dr. did. My family knows that I do not want to be kept on life support if I ever get into such a situation where life is unlikely off of it. Also, if I were in Papa's situation I would want to end it too. It may be selfish but on the other hand I think it is selfish for someone to be in that position if they don't want to be.

This is a very tough subject and I do still have some mixed feelings and don't have a clue how you would change laws to cover it.

I don't like abortion but do think it should be legal(not partial birth abortion though).

Very good question Papa.

 

Had a post but decided to email instead.

 

I think that a person certainly does have the right to choose to end their own life. That's the ultimate level of self-determination, isn't it?

Personally, I don't have a problem with Dr. Kevorkian since that's the same thing as doing it yourself. Unfortunately, our legal system is 100% opposed to this idea and operates under the assumption that anyone who wants to die is automatically considered no longer of sound mind and therefore can't make that self-determination.

Suicide is also a Mortal Sin in the eyes of Christianity and, right or wrong, much of our laws are based upon Christian dogma.

As for the impact on family and friends, while I understand the thinking behind the statement, I see that as more of a sidebar issue. Yes, one's death will effect others. But those people have no claim on an individual that overrides that individual's own choices and self-determination. No one is obligated to continue existing in misery simply because it 's easier for people to deal with than the person's death.

But like he said, there's no going back. What if you "checked out" and then two years later there was a major breakthrough in medical technology which could cure you?

As for Papa's suggestion, that's what Dr. Kavorkian did and he's in the slammer right now. So currently it's not an option. But I think it should be. Exactly how to make that happen, I don't know, but with the greying of the Baby Boomers we might see some changes as more and more of them reach that point.

 

Not an easy topic, but an important one. Not being even close to in the same shoes as many of the posters, my perpective is a little different, I guess. The only people that I have been aware of committing suicide (i.e. not just newsprint, knew family members) were both early teens, one was due to being punished for having a party in her parents absence (I have no idea what the punishment was) and the other apperently over a dispute of religion and it's impact on a 12-13 year old boy. Anyone raised in a fundmentalist religion may understand, but it is really unimportant to the discussion. In both cases, the young person's entire known world changed in a way that wasn't in line with what they hoped. At their young ages, that was their entire world, they didn't have the wider perspective that age and experience brings. Selfish? Perhaps. Shortsighted for sure, but that is all they knew at the time. They probably didn't understand what they meant to the other people in their lives. I can only hope that if there is a God and he is judging these youth, he takes life-experience into account. I know what most Bible-scholars believe, and it isn't that...

On to what Papa was probably more in mind of when he posted this question: quality of life. Having never been paralized or terminally ill, I can't honestly say my opinion means much, but here goes: if the pain will never go away and is dehabilitating (sorry about the spelling) or the person is not "mentally" there then I have no problem with euthasia (sp). I stood beside my Grandfather's bed days before he died of lung cancer/puemonia (sp) and I can tell you that even with morphien (sp again) he was in pain and he was barely there. He died of natural causes in a hospise, but if he had asked to be euthaized, my family would have agreed. I roamed the halls of that hospice briefly, and the people that work there have all my respect. Anyhow, there was no way that a cure was going to help him. In that case, no question. In a case like Papa's, I might feel a little different. I say might because other that some bbs discussions, I have never met him and I personnally know no one in that condition. But it seems that there is a very sharp and strong mind in that body still and I suspect that Papa can still contribute to the ones that love him (and he obviously loves, asking this type of question proves it to me). I think he has already proven to be brave and probably brave enough to continue.. No, the quality of life isn't the same, but there is still promise there, there is plenlty of love there. I wish I was half that brave and half that intelligent...

I probably could add to this, and trust me theology doesn't even come into the picture, but I do not feel that I have any business (other than the question asked by the author of this post) to even give an opinion and have probably said more than I should have. Papa, as always, our thoughts are with you.

 

Here's how I see it.

Rover runs out in the street and gets popped by some guy driving through the neighborhood. The poor little guy is all messed up. He is in obvious agony and things don't look so good for him. What do 99.99% of the people in this country do...Put Him Out Of His Misery.

Why is it that we treat our animals better than we treat ourselves. If a human being is in agony and makes the conscious decision that they CANNOT bear to live anymore why do we tell them they are being selfish. Why do we tell them they cannot make their peace with everyone and be put to sleep?

There are two issues at play here.

1. A terminal illness. The person has cancer and will never get rid of it. They are going to die an agonizing death.

2. The person has TERMINAL Mental Health Issues. They are so utterly depressed that they cannot see any light.

My opinion. It is entirely possible that legalizing assisted suicide may reduce the amount of people that actually go through with it.

For example, The 2nd individual above sees no hope the see no way out other than suicide. They go see a doctor to "be put to sleep". The doctor trained to deal with the mental anguish begins to talk to the indiviual they attempt to help them with their issues. MAYBE just maybe the individual finds what they need from the doctor and not the needle.

 

People decide to deliberately end their life for a number of different reasons. A sense of no longer being able to live a "full" life due to physical limitations, an overwhelming sense of dissatisfaction or discontentment, philosophical angst and pointlessness are only a few. Whether there is a common psychological thread underneath all suicidal ideation is debatable, and attempts to gain understanding of suicides are frequently futile and more for the benefit of those who survive a loved one's decision.

Efforts to separate those capable of making such a decision and those who aren't - like trying to understand why a person would commit suicide - are frequently futile and more for the survivors than the person contemplating suicide. Who am I to say whether you are "healthy" and "clear-minded" or not? Is not suicidal ideation within the normal range of cognition for humans? If not, is every person who ever considered suicide "not normal"? Can I ever truly understand what goes on inside another person?

I have known a number of people who have decided to end their own life. More than anything else, I feel horrible for the sense each one of them had of isolation and profound sadness. Regardless, I believe that it should absolutely be a person's right to end their life.

 

Papa, this will be the hardest thing I've ever posted but here goes. I'm not in your shoes so any comments are from an outsiders view.

I have suffered with depression and considered taking my life. Even tried. For me God made the difference.

Papa, you have and continue to touch so many lives. Hell we have never met but your views on this board before the crash, since the crash and today have profoundly touched me and so many others.

At one time I believed my children would be better off without me. Makes it pretty easy to believe you have no reason to be here. Those with kids will understand this better than you because they have exterienced kids of their own.

Comming back from the "pit" I now have an oppertunity to reach people that others don't because of my specific situation. You do to. People grow from interaction with others.

I could go on forever but won't, I don't know your pain, physically or mentally. We love you and want the growth we gain from your being here - that is selfish. It's your decision. You know from old conversation I have a strong faith and may not be able to support this biblically, but it is your choice, God dosen't judge as we do.

None of us can see the future, I believe there is a perfect plan for all of us.

Hell stay just to show everybody how stupid I am.

Finally to answer your question it is a personal decision. I have a problem with others helping unless we can with out question show it is that persons choice.

Jay, help me understand if I'm wrong.

 

Geez Papa, this is the most controversial thing you could come up with???

You know where I stand on this one.

I'd mourn you loss, pray you found God before passing, and celebrate the thought of walking with you in Heaven. (Rumor has it we'll all have perfect bodies there)

Edited because I can't spell when addressing Papa..he has some power over my keyboard.

 

First of all, thanks to everyone who has posted here. It shows courage, as I know for a fact that there are people who believe the subject is too sensitive to make their opinion know to all. This is not to say that the people who have chosen not to post displayed a deficit of intestinal fortitude. I am just saying that making the choice to make your opinion public is probably not an easy one.

There is one thing I would like to point out, which occurred to me as I received an e-mail from a friend in response to this thread. There is absolutely no despair in what I posted. This is a no way indicative of depression on my part. I am certainly not a psychiatrist, but I would challenge anyone to prove that my capacity to analyze the situation is altered in any way. I did go through depression for several months and at that time did ask a friend to help me. I later realized how incredibly selfish my request was, as my friend has been suffering from watching me in this condition since my accident but was unable to go through with it. He could not bring himself to telling me and just avoided me between my phone reminders. Anyway, the point am trying to make is that I no longer spend my days thinking about coming up with a way to do it. But I do want it as much now as I did when I was depressed.

Like I said, it's a matter of what a person expects from life and whether they have an interest in just hanging around if those expectations become unattainable with 99% certainty. I don't. To me, needing someone to feed me, clean me, scratch me is no different than being a vegetable with a brain. No offense to other quadriplegics, everybody is different. My opinion on this issue of life or death predates my accident by 16 or 17 years. I remember my last visit to my great-grandmother as a teenager, and how I ran out of the room to hide my tears. I never did ask what was killing her, but I knew something was and it was doing it slowly and painfully. The first thing I did when I got outside was to say a prayer that she would die soon. Those of you who know me can probably imagine it would take something serious to make me pray.

Concerning the selfishness of committing suicide, at which point does a person's life become their own? It is debatable that your life is partially owned by your parents so long as you live under their roof. And I agree 100% that if you have made the decision to start a family, you owe it to your spouse and children to be there for them if they need you. But I firmly believe that if you are 32 (OK, I am about three weeks short) with no children or commitments, no one has a claim against your life and you don't owe anything to anybody.

I don't want to minimize what happened to Wayne Rainey, but he and I are not dealing with the same challenges. At the time of his accident, he did have a wife and children. He has the use of his upper body. And he does not need to work for a living. I can't comment on Stephen Hawking. Don't know enough about him, but I do believe he is quite a bit brighter than I am and can do things to change the world. That may also be enough motivation for someone to want to be a vegetable with a brain. A big brain. And it again, people react to that same situation in various ways.

I love the friends I have made in life and I feel honored every time one of them tells me I made a small difference in their life. But frankly, it's not about them but about me and I have no interest in going through what I have to deal with every day just because it makes others feel better. First of all, I am not a nice person and have never claimed to be. So the idea of suffering just so I can occasionally make someone feel glad I am around has very little appeal to me. I am not Mother Teresa, and am pretty confident I never will be.

About euthanasia, because of what I explain earlier I am now of the opinion that people should make their feelings about the matter known to their loved ones before the time for a decision ("if I am ever terminally ill, I hope someone would help me end my suffering"). Same as a DNR, I guess. It would give people the opportunity to offer their help if they feel they can do it instead of being pressured into that position. As far as the "what if they find a cure in a few years" argument goes, I believe that people who think it is valid fail to consider one crucial element: what makes you think the person who wants to go takes any comfort in hearing that? My doctor told me after the accident that he firmly believes stem cell research will be accepted eventually, and that there would be a cure to spinal cord injury during our lifetime. Such statements also mean "you will be going through this crap for several years." What makes anybody think even one day of it is tolerable? No matter what you think, what you have seen, you cannot put yourself in someone's shoes.

Anyway, this thing has turned into a debate about me which was not the point. I just wanted to find out and discuss what people think about the topic in general is in light of the dual tragedy that has struck our community in recent weeks. I am probably done for today. Will be back tomorrow for more.

 

I just realized the reference to Wayne Rainey and Stephen Hawking addresses something that was mentioned in one of the e-mail messages I have received, not something that was posted here.

 

IMHO...

1. Yes a person has the right to kill themselves for any other reason than getting dumped by Papa.

2. From a Jeremy Bentham perspective I say one would have to perform a calculus to determine if the suffering incurred by the individual is greater than the sum of all suffering that the suicide would inflict on the survivors.

3. If you kill yourself can I have the notebook back? What with the extra RAM and all...