Right to die, obligation to live

OK, you're on. See below:

In your personal case above, you state that without God you'd be a shithead, more or less. This point of view is common amongst religious folks, towards non-believers. Sorry if I implied that you took that position and applied it to all people, but I've heard that position taken over and over by others. That without God and the promise/threat of eternal payoff, no one would do the right thing. That's bullshit. If it works for you, great. What I took issue with was the notion that one cannot live a moral life without it. Nor do I agree that it would make one angry that life is tough or anything of the sort.

I'd also suggest you recheck your cardiologist sources since they most definitely do NOT intentionally stop brain activity during cardiovascular surgery. In fact, they go to great lengths to prevent that since that means the patient is DEAD. Yes, they stop the heart and then restart it, but they go to great lengths to keep the brain alive. Otherwise you don't have a paying customer any longer. Mad Brad, you know a few cardiologists, what say you? Brain activity or not?

It's also not surprising you see "bright lights" and such. You're laying on an operating table with a bunch of spotlights over you. Tunnel vision is also part of the equation where unconsciousness and anesthesia is concerned. Seeing "a bright light at the end of the tunnel" is pretty much SOP in the recovery room after surgery. Done it a few times myself. Also heard voices. But rather than be swept up in religious rapture, I realized it was lights and voices in the hospital/recovery room and nothing more. Deprive the brain of oxygen and I have no doubts that it would even worse.

As for Satan doing his job, not what God wants, thats your take on it. I don't see Satan torturing souls as being in his best interests. What does he care? He's pissed off at God, not man. The souls that end up in his domain are God's rejects. Making them miserable is also in God's best interests, which makes it diameterically opposed to his interests. He only wants to overthrow the Big Guy and rule it all. Since he used to be God's right hand man, I'd guess he was reasonably intelligent. Unless God likes to surround himself with yes-men or something. And if he hasn't figured it out by the time I get there, I'll get his might right on the subject. I always wanted to be Satan's right-hand man. But enough theology.

Now as for proof of God, sorry but what you "feel inside" doesn't mean jack. What you call "proof of God" I call last night's Mexican food making itself known. Science, on the other hand, lays it's cards on the table, no faith required. Also, we're far from "infinite" knowledge too. In fact, I'd categorize it as the more we learn, the more we realize we don't know. But we've already demonstrated evolution in the laboratory. Experiments are also ongoing as far as simulating and understanding the origins of life. And all of this work, every last scrap of it, fits into our known body of physics, chemistry, and biology. Creationism, on the other hand, says "God made it, trust me." As proof, we're offered a book written in a time when man was so primative that it's not even funny. Go back to that era with a flashlight and a handgun and people would worship you as some sort of divinity because of the mystical powers you weild (create light from darkness, smite someone without touching them, etc.). Science also has no qualms with revising the hypothesis to fit new data. Religion, on the other hand, clings to dogma like a pit bull on a neighbor kid's leg. I mean, it was just 40 years ago that the Catholic Church finally conceded that the earth isn't the center of the solar system. And it only took them, what, 800 years?

Papa, if your art teacher knew what she was talking about, she wouldn't have been teaching your 12 year-old ass, she'd have been making money as an artist. Besides, have you been to an art gallery lately? Looks like total shit to me. I'm sure you'll do fine.

 

OK Tex, but do you believe in SPONGEBOB???

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

Who lives in a pineapple under the sea???

Spongebob!!! Squarepants!!!

Absorbent and yellow and porous is He!!!

Spongebob!!! Squarepants!!!

If nautical nonsense be somthin you wish!!!

Spongebob!!! Squarepants!!!

Then drop on the deck and flop like a fish!!!

Spongebob!!! Squarepants!!!
Spongebob!!! Squarepants!!!
Spongebob!!! Squarepants!!!

SPONGEBOBBBBBBBBBBBBB SQUAREPANNNNNNNNNNNNNNTS!!!!

ARRRRR ARRRRR ARRRRRR!!!!!



Spongebob is a great rolemodel. No matter how bad things get, he keeps his head down, doesn't let his friends down, and gives 110% even when he's failing.

Find that in any person you know.

 

In your quest to dispell the myth of God you have closed your ears and mind to anything I have to say, because you have predetermined that I am a holier than thou and delusional follower of fairytails and myths.

You know that Chrsitianity is based on Faith. There is no misconception about that. Every Christian will tell you that.

I offer a definition again of Faith:

Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.

How can you ask for logical proof or material evidence about a religion that is self described as Faith Based.

I'm embarressed that I entertained you for this long. And that it took me this long to realize that it is impossible to disprove something that by definition needs no proof at all.

I'm done.

Mark

 

Well, I've broken my own rule about getting involved in a religious discussion on this board. But I'm going to leave it with this:

Max, you should've followed Jay's advice that he gave you a while back about staying off of this board. It's amazing, I can tell you about my beliefs and how I believe they apply to you and I would be labeled a radical, zealot, judgemental, self-righteous, right-wing hatemonger. You on the other hand can make lite of, and ridicule what I hold as sacred, and it's all fun and games. I can't think of a single person who has ridiculed your own personal beliefs in this whole thread. Oh, but then you don't have any to ridicule do you? Except for your belief in your own great fortitude and self reliance. If you have a Bible, take a look at what Proverbs 16:18 says. If you don't have one, call Jay, he'll read it to you.
I don't believe I want to do business with anyone who treats others in such a way. I'm regretting the business that I've given you so far. My money will spend anywhere, and in the future I'll spend it elsewhere.

mtk, no, evolution has not been proven in any lab. No lab has been able to get a soupy mixture of water to turn into an amoeba, or an amoeba to turn into a frog, or a frog to turn into a bird. Take a close look at the data. If it had been proven, every newspaper in this country would have been shouting it on it's front page. Science is a joke, you don't think there's an agenda there? Science is a religion unto itself. Think you don't have to have faith in believing in evolution/carbon dating/radiometric dating/earth creation? Take a look at the assumptions that have to be accepted for any one of those to make sense. Having faith in those things makes my faith in my God look pretty puny. Of course science has "no qualms" refuting itself, it has no choice.What "dogma" of the Bible has science refuted? None/zip/nada.
As far as the New Testament being accurate to what was first written, it's the most accurate piece of ancient literature we have, bar none. We've got thousands of ancient manuscripts, on which our present day Bible is based on, written just a few years after the death of Jesus, and you know what's written in them? The same thing that's written in your unread Bible today, it's 100% theologically pure. Ever heard of the "Dead Sea Scrolls"? So no, it's not a book that's been translated thousands of times, each time losing its' original meaning. Oh, and by the way, are you a "near death experience" expert, because, as you put it " I done it a few times myself"? I guess if you "done it", that gives you the authority to speak as an expert. I think I would rather listen to a cardiologist who has witnessed hundreds of deaths, and been a part of hundreds of resuscitations. Like I suggested to another poster, read "To Hell and Back" by Dr. Maurice S. Rawlings, he disagrees with you on just about every level.

Well, that's it. Like I said before, if you don't want to see it you won't see it. If you don't want to believe it, you won't. Myself, I like the idea of immortality. I like the idea of loving and serving others. I like knowing that the creator of the universe has my best interest in His heart and wants me to be with Him so bad that he gave all He had to make that possible. I don't see it as a crutch, naivety etc.. I see it as a willingness to believe in more than just myself.

flame away.

P.S. By the way Max, Jesus is a much greater role model, He always kept His head down (in prayer) no matter how bad things got. He gave all He had for His friends, and even those who hated Him, He always gave 110% and never failed.

 

Where do I start? You're quite a flamee. So I'll be the flamer.

1. "evolution has not been proven in any lab" Try reading a book other than the Bible. Also, try to stay awake during science class.

2. "I can tell you about my beliefs and how I believe they apply to you and I would be labeled a radical, zealot, judgemental, self-righteous, right-wing hatemonger." If you don't have the strength of your convictions to say whats really on your mind. . . shut the fuck up. And if your so-called convictions are so strong, why the hell can't you take some shit being thrown at them. Maybe you are weaker in your faith than you think if you can't stand a sly comment. What would Jesus do? Not whine like a baby thats for sure.

3. "I can't think of a single person who has ridiculed your own personal beliefs in this whole thread." You don't come here often do you? max is routinely called to account for his outspokenness.

4. "Science is a joke" thanks to the joke you are on the internet.

5. "Think you don't have to have faith in believing in evolution/carbon dating/radiometric dating/earth creation? Take a look at the assumptions that have to be accepted for any one of those to make sense." Way back when I was in college doing anthropology and archeology, I had a pretty good understanding of how radio-carbon dating worked. It has been tested against a variety of other age calculation techniques and it works with a realtively narrow margin of error.

And, btw, what is your explanation for dinosaurs? Fake or fraud? Giant conspiracy to disprove the Bible? i have also never seen George Bush but I have faith he exists.


6. "I don't believe I want to do business with anyone who treats others in such a way. I'm regretting the business that I've given you so far. My money will spend anywhere, and in the future I'll spend it elsewhere." I'm sure Max knows that some folks will walk due the positions he takes on the board. So what, at least he says whats on his mind. See #2, above.

That was fun, but i have to go home now.

Rodger

 

My $0.02:

The person who asissts a suicide does it for personal reasons. The `I`m giving a friend peace... he/she is out of their misery... school of thought that leads to an action. Kinda like putting an injured animal down for good.

Those on the sidelines apply their standards to the act. Therein lies the rub: how can those on the sidelines pass judgement on an action they have not done.

Boss Lady has a saying (paraphrased): If they only walked a mile in my shoes, they`d know why things are done the way they are.

The following is Personal Opinion is not based on fact or act. To answer Papa`s question: It is kindness/act of caring/act of love.

 

the brain is perfusionized during the stoppage of the heart. that's the job of the perfusionist, and the {for lack of a better term} heart lung machine. although, there is a condition known as "pump head" which is memory loss, or behavior modification due to lack of blood/oxygen perfusion to the brain during long "pump times" i.e. long complicated heart lung procedures.

long story short: no, the brain does not stop with the heart during bypass/open heart etc.

 

I don't know how to edit and respond properly, so please read the responses in the post above!

Spongebob doesn't seem to die at the first group of people who disapproved of his positive energy.



BTW, I want you to note that my tiny company is almost the single largest contributor to the Airfence Fund, and one day, it will be. How much did you donate this week?

BTW, my wife and I bought school supplies for 24 children in our county who didn't have any last week. I mean I got in my truck, drove to the store, and pushed a cart around, bought the supplies, and delivered them to a local church in need. Pretty weird for an aetheist who isn't worthy of your business dollars, eh???

What did you do to change the life of someone less fortunate than you last week? What are you going to do this week?

I mean, do you understand how good your life is? I know I am am as priviledged as anyone I know. I don't need a God to know that.

I will be mailing another check to John Ulrich within two weeks or so for another $250 to the Airfence Fund. Don't you think I could use that money? My wife lost her 6 Figger job last fall (IBM/ATT downsizing) and we have been broke ever since.

But it's OK, you can choose not to do business with a scumbag like me.

PS, It's not all about money either, you could change someone's life with your time. I have no time and some money. I have some money because I work harder than anyone I know. I give my money and some time because that is all I have.

"Rich" is a state of mind. I am one of the richest people I know. I love my wife, my life, and my friends. I don't even have a net worth of 1M yet.

You can never be rich without sharing whatever you have. Maybe that is a religious teaching????

 

If this discussion gets to the realization that all atheists/agnostics are not evil, and all Christians are not perfect (Don't tell the baptists!!!)* it would be easier to find a common ground of respect.

The only difference that I can see between Max and I is where we believe we get the ability to do the things we do.

I had Max's EXACT outlook once, and now I don't. Every now and then I'd listen to someone who thought differently...eventually it stuck.

Not debating, just observing.

Tex.

* I am Baptist, I can say that

 

Strange words of wisdom...

Fer someone from a furren cuntreee lack Texas.....



I like it when people can realize differences, learn about other people's views, and have a broader perspective.

Back to whatever started this thread...

Papa wants us to drop a bomb on his room.

Are we gonna do it???????


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Papa, you just gotta listen to all of this rhetoric until one of us says something that makes you want to hang around with us.

I thought another cool job for you would be:

You could be a Model for the Craftmatic Adjustable Bed. You would look cool and smile while some Ahole bent you into a bunch of positions with a remote control like OJ Simpson in a Naked Gun movie with Leslie Nielsen....

 

What clouded your perspective???

 

I second the motion not to off Papa.

 

My final post on the subject if anyone cares:

Faith and Christianity are about being humble. Realizing that in the Grand Scheme of things you are weak, you do not know as much as you think you do, and the questions you can not answer are really too deep for you even to ask.

I think this is where the problems come in with faith and the idea that a supreme being may or may not exist. If you believe in God you have to believe that he is all powerful, all knowing and without him you are worthless. With God guiding you ANYTHING is possible. Those of you that feel that you have worked your butt of to get where you are, those of you that think you have sacrificed tons to be the person you are today, those of you that think NOBODY helped you, that you did it on your own are going to struggle to give credit to someone else even the Almighty. I can understand the issue. Realize (as I am sure PAPA does) it all can be taken away, as the bible says, in a blink of an eye.

Tex stated that nothing bad has ever happened to him that result in something good. I guarentee that if you ask TEX about the bad he will say that there was SOMETHING going on in his life that was PULLING him away from God. Then when the "PUNCH IN THE NOSE" came he JUMPED back into God's Arms...God was there to pick him up and the good came.

Max you have stated on SEVERAL occassions that God is only there for the Good Stuff. I agree 100% anytime I have ever had ANYTHING bad happen to me it is for the EXACT reason stated above. I was moving away from God and he had to remind me what I was supposed to be doing.

Mongo stated earlier that TEX was what he thinks of when he thinks of a Christian. I don't know Tex but that is one of the highest compliments a Christian can receive. Mongo's comments also hit home a little bit. He may not have been talking to me (probably was )but he was talking about me. As I stated early on I would be an awful POSTER Child for Christians. I'm in, I'm out, sometimes I party sometimes I don't, Sometimes i go to church sometimes I don't. The one thing I know beyond a shadow of a doubt is I will be perfect one day. God will take the desire to sin (that is in all of us) out of my heart and let me into heaven. That is what is so wonderful and merciful about GOD! We are all his children and if we just believe and ask him in our heart to forgive us he will!

 

Max, I'm not "withholding" my business from you because of what you believe, but because you have chosen to ridicule and make lite of what I believe.

I know Jay would give you a hug, he's that kind of guy. I know, he's a close personal friend of mine. I work with him everyday, I think he can attest to my intentions.

Yes, I do my share to help in this world. Although I don't feel the need to share my "good guy" resume with you. I do thank you for your support of the air fence fund.

Roger Doyle, you sure are touchy about science, maybe a little unsure? I did pay attention, I have read, that's why I've come to the conclusion I come to. How much time have you spent in the Bible? Or have you just taken someone else's word for it?

Carbon dating, I've heard and have been a part of most of the arguments. Carbon dating is not based on any unprovable assumption? Doesn't require any faith? You may want to go back and read again.

If you had paid attention to what I wrote, I wrote that Max had not been attacked on this thread/this thread/this thread.

Thank you for all your support.

 

I'm not sure what your point is here exactly but yes, Carbon dating (and all other radiometric dating) is based on the "unprovable" assumption that decay rates stay relatively constant. Nothing is 'provable' in science like in geometry, which is a common misunderstanding about scientific theories.

No, radiometric dating is not based on faith. But you could say 'but if is based on unprovable assumptions, then it is a form of faith'. Faith is not tested against the evidence while radiometric dating is. Dating methods are constantly being tested and compared. This is not faith, this is the scientific method.

 

What is the difference between Christan bashing and bashing of Gays, Blacks and other "groups"?

Seems to me there is no difference. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

oh, christians are much worse. {joke people, joke}

and T316, you are way too sensitive dude. max did not offend you in any way. you offended yourself.

 

Nope.

 

Dave K- the difference is that it's not "politically incorrect" to bash Christians.

Brad- I love you man, but I can't tell what might offend you, how can you tell what offends me?

thuxley-"No, radiometric dating is not based on faith. But you could say 'but if is based on unprovable assumptions, then it is a form of faith'. "
Which is it man?! If I believe the "unprovable assumptions" about my God it's faith, but if you believe in the "unprovable assumptions" concerning carbon dating/evolution etc.. it's not faith? You lost me. (Not very hard to do.)
By the way, my faith in the Bible is tested against the evidence, it has been over the last 2000 years. It's not "blind faith". No one has ever found evidence to refute what it says, but there is a lot of evidence that supports what it says.

Roger Doyle- I'll buy you a steak dinner if you show me any papers or textbook that shows that evolution has been proven in a lab. I'm not talking about "macroevolution" I'm talking about species/dna jumping evolution.


Pleasure as always.