WERA Vintage 2006

who is chubby huggs? I agree that Bob M. is probably the most analytical and thoughtful member on this forum. His ideas are well thought out presented in a very professional and thorough manner. If he is not a part of our "team" to help approve rules and structure classes he should be. For the last three years I have no t seen anyone else put forth more thought and effort into making sense of our vintage racing structure, classes and rules. He has an objective point of view for a 2 stroker(rare find) and only wants to see competive racing among a diverse field of machines. Get YamahaFan on the TEAM please.

 

Its hard for them to be dominent when their not on the grid and attendance was not lower.In fact it was twice as big in 03


As far as an explanation,that
can be explained easily.The same way you explain Brad Duncan running a 18 at Roebling,(a HP track) on a tired 55-59HP FZR400.Something I would dare say you nor I could duplicate on our current sleds on our best day.So it boils down to lightweight,cornerspeed,good rider and a wealth of time and knowledge on that bike.I dont know that much about RZ's,but I know yours is pretty trick and probably lighter than the FZR and about the same HP.Just because its older doesnt mean its not better suited for a race application once tweaked.


In my rookie season(03)I used to dread when Skiles,or Sweeney would show up on the 250's.My only losses that year were to 250's.Lance and I were both maxed out going into the GNF,but I knew with out a doubt he was going to beat me.Skiles and Sweeney didnt race much so they started way back in the pack.I didnt see Sweeney come around me,but Skiles came around me on the outside of 5 in the dirt(WOW).I was on his ass coming out on to the back straight.I thought my bike would walk away on that long straightaway.Nope,it was all I could do just to try and stay in what little draft that bike emitted.I hear the three 250's had an awesome race.Skiles came from the back to win and I was the first 4stroke to cross the line in 4th 16secs. later.

Just think they belong in HW thats all and sorry about the thred-jack.I know we have beat this horse many times.





Tex,watching him come from the very back to the front was awesome.No doubt he will be a star.I had to go over to the hill on the other side because I wanted to watch him come through the kink on the backstraight on that 125.UNBELIEVABLE.Give him my props.:up:



Joe,grid up

 

I'll add an interesting item of interest to the V7MW TZ debate. When the AMA killed the 250 GP class and created the current Formula Extreme class with 600cc I-4 superbikes, Rich Oliver petitioned the AMA to allow I think 350cc or 380cc 2-strokes based off a 250cc GP bike (bigger cylinders, longer stroke). Rich clearly understood how much displacement he would need to be competitive with 600cc superbikes. When the AMA said no, he packed his bags stating that there is no way a 250cc GP bike could be competitive in the class.

This is the same issue we have in V7 MW, just different era bikes and at a club level.

I get the feeling many V7 riders would like to have a spec class similar to a modern 600cc supersport class. That's all well and good, but boring.

Have I bought a TZ250 to run in V7 MW. Not yet. Will I? Maybe. I'd like to keep running WERA and I really like 2-strokes, but if the trend is still more elimination of where a 2-stroke can enter I may just have to pack my bags and go to USGPRU.

I won't go to VIR or Road A to watch the AMA races for several reasons, #1 on the list is no more 250 GP class. Also, why pay all that money to watch 4 races with basically all the same machinery. Heck, even non-racer friends of mine perfer to go to WERA races instead of the AMA to watch due to the diversity of machinery, competitive races to watch, and great atmosphere. Let's keep it that way.

 

An FX 600 makes in the neighborhood of 150hp and weighs maybe 350 pounds. In contrast, a typical V7MW bike weighs maybe 450 pounds and makes around 90hp.

In TZ land, a brand new TZ250 wieghs only incrementally less than a 95 TZ (10 pounds maybe?) and makes only incremetally more hp, particularly when tuned by a club racer, and not Rich Oliver. Look at the last 250GP AMA results...there were regularly 4 and 5 year old TZs on the podium.

Whatever...I love 2-strokes, and the last thing I'd want would be to push them out of existence. However, to suggest that a TZ250 and an F3 are roughly equal performers is kinda leaning toward ridiculous. Of course, according to the letter of the rulebook, one could build a full-on F3 Superbike, and have a shot, but is this realistic?

I know for me, the interest comes w. the ability to have a fun time with some nice folks at a very reasonable cost. If I wanted to spend $3,000 on a superbike motor, I sure as heck woudn't be spending it on an F3. And, to the whole 'have fun' subject, I don't really mind if the 250s race in the class, because I just wanna beat Stickboy I'm not gonna worry about bikes that I cna't possibly compete with.

 

Chubby Huggs is me

 

what???

Superbike-Superbike-Superbike

Superbike to us means,being able to run slicks,anykinda bodywork,a 637cc motor,change wheels,whatever.I saw an add for three ex-AMA superbikes.$156,000 each.There is no trick HRC parts for these things anymore and Im sure not going to spend $5000.00 for a balanced and blueprinted motor and I doubt anyone else would either.If I was going to do that I would just buy a TZ.I could just sit on a TZ and take 3secs. off my lap times. Furthermore no one is asking that they be eliminated.Only that they run HW.

V7 riders dont want a spec. class,only bikes that are close in POWER TO WEIGHT.Then the rest is up to the riders.In some ways that may be similar to a spec class,but to race 2ft. from your vintage bretheren and swaping the lead numerous times,I thought that was what racing was all about.To call that boring makes me think you are either having a bad day or have bumped your head. And as your friends like to watch,that is competitive racing.


Have I bought a TZ250?Not yet.Will I?Only if Joe does

 

Non-vintage P.O.V.

I just checked this thread and wanted to ask a few questions from a non-vintage guy (or suggestions)

Could Vintage just be run at half the events to promote turn-out? So if you ran the NC region, have them at each track once, that's it.

Could Vintage drop some of the classes with low or no turn-out? Lets face it that there is a another org that might served the older bike classes better. Why compete and have small to no grids? I'm not saying that WERA turns their back on some classes, by why continue to loose money on classes that in reality are not being raced or very lightly attended?

Instead of fragmenting the vintage 'scene' with too many races or orgs, let's focus on the 'modern' vintage (1976 and up) and add a much asked about V8 (or whatever you want to call it) 1996-1998 class. Becasue you know that there are bikes still out there that would enter. And you would have some decent grids, pull in some money.

As far as the GSXR issue after 1996, just ban them from V8.

I love vintage, but want to see it work. Cut some races, cut pre 1976 classes, add V8 and see what happens. Just ideas. I'll shut up now.

 

Re: Non-vintage P.O.V.

There are two issues in turnout/participation, one is how may bikes are competing in a given class and the other is how many show up at a given race. Improving grid size/race turnout is certainly an issue :Off: but it is not the subject of this thread.



We have good participation in most of the post 72 classes, look at the results in the points and you can get an idea of the number of bikes being raced in a given class. There is really not a pre-76 cutoff. I am not in favor of doing away with the GP classes, some consolidation yes but not elimination. I made my rules change suggestion based on vintage bikes being raced in WV and in other organizations. I was attempting to provide a competitive class for bikes that have been raced but were shown to be non-competitive in the current structure I.E. the Honda 400/4. The "stocker" RDs lost their home in F-RD when it was eliminated, there are RD racers that would like a competitive class to run in without making major upgrades/changes.. A disc brake V-2 class would match up well with AHRMA's F-250 class. It is more attractive to new racers to build a disc brake bike, I think this can be a help in attracting new participation......

 

Sorry about the off topic.

 

What Rich Oliver clearly understood when he wanted TZ'z in FX at 350 to 380cc's was what to do to put the TZ's back to the spec they used when Team Roberts were racing Wera's FUSA pro series against GSXR1100's and other full bore HW bikes before the 500's were brought in for him and Peterson.

I'm certain anyone with a TZ or thinking about an older one would agree with you about racing them in V7MW, but that doesn't make it a good idea for the class overall.

 

No need to apologize, I did not mean to be pushy, more of a friendly re-direction , I am just trying to focus this thread on class structure etc.. we have had several marathon threads on the schedule and other structural issues.... :up:

Please make any suggestions with respect to participation based on rules/class structure that you think will improve the organization....

 

My semi complete thoughts on 2006:

The 250, 350 & 500 GP classes: No changes, however, lovers of the oldies but goodies be warned, its time to step up to the plate next year or I fear these classes will suffer in some way, be it combined or some other more drastic fate.

V1: No changes, its good to go as is.

V2: The single disc idea is a good one, the were used both on the street and at the track during the era. Also cool idea is Bob M's suggestion's taken along with Lyn's about the addon's to the class, CB400F, RD350/400 with DG pipes and aftermarket Igt to lose the points system.

V3: Good as is, Sorry but the Yam550 request is off base, different era, even with the older spec running gear it could render the Triumph twins outclassed when built right, want to run a fast muti in the V3, think single cam CB550.

F500: Pretty good as is, however the preformance of a fully built RD well sorted out was displayed at Barber in April, 4 stroke twins like Tim's Triumph and my GS450 should be allowed a min of 550cc, Hell no you say, well, a CB550 is already legal for F500 so twins should get to build to at least that level.

F2S: ie, Joe's Cup. Pretty good as is.

V4: Pretty good rules package as is.

V5: Pretty Good as is, not perfect but better to leave it as is then muck it up.

V6LW: Great class with good growth, leave it untouched.

V6HW: Leave it alone, good as is.

V7MW & HW: Pretty good, give it another year before everyone pushes so hard for for a cutoff change, better to wait then rush into change just for the sake of change.

Off topic items: Not really IMO. the events themselves.

I've heard all the naysayers, still not convinced, Too fucking many races IMO, back to back dates, Vintage races run the same day in different regions. Its bad for the Vintage series,

I know we are somewhat limited to whats where and how many for the non-Vintage races, but having a vintage race for the sake of having one when there is another somewhere else makes no sense, it bad enough when Race org's complete for the same pool of riders on a given weekend, lets not do it to ourselves!

Don't cut much, just cut out running a Wera Vintage race against a Wera Vintage race.

Maintain the Regional championship chase but lets make a true National Vintage Series, Have each of the 4 regions have 3 Nationals ( they will count toward the region in that region also) for a total of 12, only 6 will count,

However you must have a National result from each of the 4 regions.

I'm not about to request that everyone have to go to the far reaches so don't have Nationals at Grattan or Autobaun (sp)

Follow that with the normal DP round at Road Atlanta and their you have a true National Championship Chase.

Bob

 

OK,, CS is a freak of nature you should not rate a bike based on its rider... :down: The 550 is legal but it suffers a weight penalty. It is to early to be politicking for more displacement,,, you were successful at getting added to the class for this year, no chance you can be thankful for that? and Tim needs no help, although a couple of larger slugs in that motor could turn it into a grenade!

 

CS is a great rider, no doubt, But Tim & I have been around the track a few laps ourselves, I along with others watched his RD suck back tarmac from a very fast RZ riden by a very fast rider. Thats where the bar is set, by the bike, The RD has has loads more going for it in light weight and power production when build to F500 full on spec then any triumph 500 twin or GS450 twin will ever have, be it 500cc or 550cc's, no matter the level of build.

You of all people know that, your not willing to admit it but that doesn't make it less true. Yes, Tim & I have won some races, don't hold back a lesser bike just because the rider's Rock.

Bob

 

CS has time at Barber, yea he made up some time on Joe, but Joe did not know he was coming.. There can be no doubt that Tims finishes are a tribute to his riding skills and the seat time he has on his bike. Your bike on the other hand is a different story... there is nearly 10 years between the designs of it and Tims, not really fair to try and co-opt the two bikes.. Your a great rider and you made a successful lobbying effort to have your bike included in the F-500 class... a bit more time will shake out what tweaking may or may not be deserving... We could always lobby for you to be bumped back to V-4

 

Lobby away, the GS's 350lbs and mid 50'd hp output to an RD like yours which by your own admission is in the upper 60's while its weighs what, 250, 275lbs?? less then 250lbs????

Like I said before, you of all people know these facts but will never admit it, your so full of 2 smoke castor seeps out your ass...



whatever gets you to sleep at nite, back at ya

 

Sounds to me, like you need to build an RD, Bob.

 

I sleep fine at night, and have no issues with how much or little my bike weighs, it is one of the original F-500 bikes, the design originated in 1972.... Ohh and no thanks on the castor, you must be sampling someone else's exhaust, I use 100%synthetic..... if you have HP envy do some development, or if you are dissatisfied with your bikes weight put it on a diet... sorry that the designers of your past the cutoff date machine left you with a bit more baggage than you would prefer, then again you could try an RD..... or an H1?

On the subject of the GP classes, I hate to be the one to raise the issue of consolidation but.... if the criteria for the viability of a given class was set by the decision on F-RD, 250 and 350 GP are won by the same bikes, it is just a repeat of the same race... Is it appropriate to look at a lightweight and heavyweight VS a 250/350/500 GP class structure?

 

Hell, he had a pretty good looking RZ but sold it.

In any event, this is fun reading and passes good time until the next race.

Bob, your summary of next years classes is agreeable. IMO, WERA needs at least 2 years of running the vintage scene before any changes are made.

If class changes are made such that my RZ becomes uncompetitive as it is currently built I will either pull the engine out and drop it in a better chassis for Clubman, buy a TZ and run either WERA or USGPRU, buy an Aprilia RS250 for D Superbike, build a FZR400 with 600 engine for V7MW, or put my Aprilia Mille on the track.

 

I need alot of things, but with race expenses going up, up ,up and gas being $2.50 a gal and up I'll think I'll stick with whats already in the garage, when I'm feeling down I'll just think back to the last time my overweight/underpowered pig showed Bob's RD my asscrack

The Dick