Thoughts on V6HW V7HW class structure

Discussion in 'WERA Vintage' started by Outsider V6 V7, Nov 21, 2019.

  1. Outsider V6 V7

    Outsider V6 V7 Well-Known Member

    Sean, this is by no means a points question so please disregard anything Isenhower posts if it's points related. LOL As the self proclaimed god father of modern vintage with WERA we've seen a huge decline in these classes. Ray Hickman and I have been competing against each other since 1998 on old GSXR's. In it's heyday I believe the V7HW class had upwards of 20 on the grid at the GNF 2005? Of course several were bumping up from MW. Since then it's pretty much been Ray and I on our 7/11's. After the GNF Ray said it would be his last year on the big bike so I think now is the appropriate time to make a change.
    What I'm proposing is this.
    V6HW mimic AHRMA Next Generation Superbike class. Basically a 1992 cutoff date of 750cc inline and V cylinders with a 2mm overbore. Superbike configuration so USD forks, Flatslides and wider wheels. None of those fancy radial brake calipers. Ducati's 851 and 888 allowed with overbore. I'd quote their language on like design to eliminate the fiasco that AHRMA endured in it's first two seasons of this class. This change would eliminate the 7/11 and 7/10 hybrids that we all were racing. Prior to posting this I created a group of WERA, AHRMA and CCS racers to discuss this proposal and all are on board. Next year there will be 5 new racers in this class some you may have heard of. Brad Coleman, John Jacobi, Mark Junge, and I'd probably offer my backup to Lee Acree if he wants to ride it. Basically this generates more opportunities for people to attend WERA events and makes all three organizations classes eligible.

    V7HW would be a mashup of current V7HW, AHRMA Next Generation Superbike 2 and V6HW mutants. Basically the 7/11's from V6, the CBR900RR, ZX9R and Pre 1996 open class bikes of V7HW. From the AHRMA side it brings in the 996 Ducati's, the first Gen Aprilia's, the TL 1000, Pre 2002 ZX7 and the SRAD Suzuki's. Of course the RC30 and 45, OWO1 Yamaha are also legal. V7MW's are encouraged to bump up. For reference AHRMA next Gen 2 best lap time for 2 years was a 36. WERA: Norm Hammond, Kevin Calloway, Chuck DiGregorio and many others have all run 36's in MW. I've run 37 on my 7/11 and that's just way too fast for me.
    So basically I want to hear what everyone has to say about this and if no real complaints then what do I need to do to officially submit this for consideration.

    Thanks,
    The original Eboz LOL
     
    Dyle likes this.
  2. gofastpinhead

    gofastpinhead Well-Known Member

    I’m trying to compete with you and Ray....but I’m with you as far as anything to get more butts out there.


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  3. ScottyRock155

    ScottyRock155 A T-Rex going RAWR!

    A WERA equivelent of the AHRMA Next Gen 2 class would be great. Out of personal preference I would love this to happen as it would give me an actual WERA class to run the SRAD. I know I can run it in V8HW, but a 2007 GSXR 1000 is also legal for that class, which I don't really see as a fair fight. I don't really understand the point of the rolling year thing in V8 while all the other vintage classes remain static.
     
  4. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    I'm all for updating the rules as the bikes still out there change, that's why V8 exists.

    The rolling year thing is a throwback to what V6 was originally until some major changes happened. I actually did it hoping this kind of conversation would take place to update some of the other classes. Along with posts here - email me what you guys would like, we're going to do a Vintage Advisory Board to help out as well this off season to get more eyes on things than just me so I'd like things to send them for input.
     
    stickboy274, Dyle, Killswitch and 2 others like this.
  5. RRP

    RRP Kinda Superbikey

    E - sent you a text with a question.
     
  6. Outsider V6 V7

    Outsider V6 V7 Well-Known Member

    Thanks Sean for the consideration and giving us a place to race old bikes. I'll watch the replies for a few weeks then submit a formal proposal. Looking forward to revitalizing these obsolete classes.
     
  7. Outsider V6 V7

    Outsider V6 V7 Well-Known Member

    This proposal gives you less of a disadvantage than the current setup and we all just want to have more people on board
     
    gofastpinhead likes this.
  8. Outsider V6 V7

    Outsider V6 V7 Well-Known Member

    replied back to you. Oh and I'm sending the exhaust can today. I'm tired of it riding shotgun in my car for the last two weeks. LOL
     
    RRP likes this.
  9. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    Just keep in mind there is a point where just getting butts out there can work against you if you open it too much and someone builds to the nth degree of the rule. Then they always win and everyone says screw it, it's Vintage and I'm not spending that much to be competitive so I'll stay home.
     
    Dyle likes this.
  10. Outsider V6 V7

    Outsider V6 V7 Well-Known Member

    I agree 100% and there are already people who have done so. I think the 7/11's and such in HW did that for the most part. I realize my 1986 GSXR 750 wasn't the best choice for this proposed class, but I built it to ride. I've beat some Ducs some Zx7's and have improved my lap times on this bike each year. Still anyone I named dropped earlier could probably spank me riding a 600 Hurricane. The proposed V7HW should be a blast as I see parity of lap times from all classes. Plus the V6, V7 guys have been racing and passing a lot of these Ducs and TL's for years. LOL Looking forward to working with you on this Sean.
     
    Dyle likes this.
  11. Harry V. III

    Harry V. III Well-Known Member

    I nominate The Boz to the Vintage Advisory Board.
     
  12. gofastpinhead

    gofastpinhead Well-Known Member

    Second


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    Dyle likes this.
  13. 2Big4Bike

    2Big4Bike Well-Known Member

    Hey Godfather of Vintage:D , the only thing that AHRMA would bring to V7HW based on your post is the Duc 996 and SRAD...all other bikes you listed are already legal for WERA V7HW...All Kawasaki ZX7 regardless of year (may use stock 6” rear wheel, aftermarket wheels must meet class specs), all Ducati 916 and Yamaha YZF750 regardless of year, all RC51, TL1000, GSF1200(S), VTR1000F and Z1000 regardless of year (must remain SS spec with the exception of bodywork), All Honda CBR900 regardless of year (1998 engines must remain SS Spec). 2000-2003 Aprilia Millle/Tuono/Falco (must remain SS spec with the exception of bodywork).

    Are you proposing Superbike Rules for the bikes that are required to remain SS legal in V7HW currently?

    What year cut-off for the ZX9R? Big difference between 1997 ZX9R and 1998-2003 ZX9R...but that might interest some Kawasaki fans.

    There have been previous posts and interest suggesting ZRX1100/1200 all years be allowed in V7HW...it seems like a better fit than their current legal status of V8HW eligibility.

    As far as everyone's hatred of radial brakes in Vintage classes, I don't see it as a game changer as far as performance (I don't have the skill for it to make a difference)...but allowing radial brakes in V7HW would create an avenue for weight savings for bikes like a ZX7R. A 2nd or 3rd Gen ZX10R front end is a popular weight savings swap which allows the use of a lighter front end without buying high dollar aftermarket wheels. This might help some people make the decision to build a bike for the class. Also, didn't some of the early Aprilia models have radial brakes from the factory? I believe there were many AMA teams that had radial brakes (late 90's early 2000's) before they were put on everything coming off the showroom floor.
    Just my 2 cents.

    I currently only have a V5 bike...but I've always tried to talk myself into a V7HW.

    Just throwing some questions out there. :beer:

    Regards,
    Chad
     
    Pro Speed Racin likes this.
  14. ScottyRock155

    ScottyRock155 A T-Rex going RAWR!

    Which is why it's a great idea.
     
  15. Outsider V6 V7

    Outsider V6 V7 Well-Known Member

    Chad, great questions regarding rules so here's my thoughts not to be interpreted as rules. We being those of us who raced obsolete vintage for several years always viewed the SRAD as the bike that changed the game at the club level. Because of this the they were excluded from WERA V7HW and by the time the next class was created the SRAD was obsolete. Because of this it will need to remain in Superstock form or the way it is currently legal in AHRMA. The 1997-2003 ZX9 aren't eligible in either WERA or AHRMA so that could be discussed. The Next Gen 2 rule to allow the ZX7 up to 2002 or 3, can't remember the exact year, was derived from all the Zx7 guru's and parts hoarders who have raced or built a Zx7 consulting prior to making the final rule. The 93 was significantly different to the the 1991-2 J model ZX7 but very close to the following years. I'M not a ZX7 expert but that's how the rule was explained to me. Not looking to reopen this can of worms. As for the brake, front end issue I'm a firm believer in the statement that if it was on the production bike of the eligible years then it should be legal. In NG1 the first year rules didn't allow a switch from conventional to USD if they didn't come stock on the bike. It was later revised so the guys running 86-90 GSXR's could upgrade. They were legal in both WERA V6 and V7 classes so most of us made the switch but my AHRMA bike is rocking the 86 1100 conventional forks. Lot's of people talk about building bikes every time a new class is discussed but probably less than 5% ever do. My proposal was to try and create some parity between organizations so that people would have additional opportunities to race their bikes without having to change components. Let me make this statement, by proposing these changes I go from being a front runner to a mid packer as the bikes I will ride in each class would be considered the worst choice possible. Here's how simple this could be. Build a bike that meets NG1, NG2 V6HW or V7HW and bring it to Tech. Show me bike year and tell me what rules you are complying with. Example I'm running a 1986 Suzuki GSXR 750 frame with an 1127 GSXR engine. The swap required no cutting or welding and was a direct bolt in and both serial numbers frame and engine meet the eligibility requirements. Fast guys who are building bikes for this class don't plan on running the entire series in either organization so championships, trophies and number one plates aren't the goal. If people want to win a championship in Vintage just go do all the races and don't DNF spend the 20K to go coast to coast and in your mind you're a winner. In conclusion Chad asked the questions that people want to know. Obsolete Vintage can grow it just needs some massaging and uniformity amongst organizations. In the golden years of V7 there were battles at the front of the grid between a monster Honda F2 600, a TZ 250 an 88 FZR1000 and a couple of 86 GSXR 1100's. All bikes were legal and anyone could win based on which bike was best for the track that weekend. That's the end goal. Everyone please continue to post questions and suggestions this is how we can move forward.
     
    Jeff McKinney and 2Big4Bike like this.
  16. Outsider V6 V7

    Outsider V6 V7 Well-Known Member

    As for the ZRX 1100/1200, Bandit 1200 and whatever Honda calls it's retro standard I don't think anyone would have an issue letting them in with superstock trim. They already have 17 inch wheels and decent suspension and two of the three are water cooled. As stickboy says to us oil cooled guys that fad will never catch on. LOL
     
    beachbum40mx and 2Big4Bike like this.
  17. RRP

    RRP Kinda Superbikey

    Yeah I got a question...did you ship out that VH yet?



    :D
     
  18. pawpawrc

    pawpawrc Well-Known Member

    Well as one of the only people consistently running V7HW, I can definitely attest to the lack of participation- a few times I was the only one out there. I have absolutely no problem with letting just about anything out there as long as some more people will show up. I can’t improve unless I have someone to chase, and right now it feels like a track day with a participation trophy. Have at it Eboz- I’m gonna try to make some AHRMA rounds with you doing next gen 2 next year! My buddy just got a 916 we are going to sort out so he and I can ride together in V7 next season also.
     
    2Big4Bike likes this.
  19. ScottyRock155

    ScottyRock155 A T-Rex going RAWR!

    I think this is key. Even with well meaning changes its hard to get more bikes out there. I am giving my feedback on this issue because I already have the bike and have been getting it ready for AHRMA Next Gen 2. I already planned on trying to do some WERA V8HW on it, but that's the only class it can run without bumping to modern classes. If I could run V7HW and V8HW I would be much more likely to attend more WERA rounds. I hate all the work and driving for one race a day. No change is going to flood the class with new bikes, but making it so there is direct crossover from AHRMA Next Gen and WERA just makes too much sense.

    Eboz wanting to let faster bikes into the class he races just shows how much of true pimp he really is. :cool:
     
    Outsider V6 V7 likes this.
  20. gofastpinhead

    gofastpinhead Well-Known Member

    Side note....I’ll be getting an 01 gsxr600 before the start of next season. Pretty sure that falls into the V8 category.


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