Supersport Build = Loss of 8 HP

Cool. You should have them by Tuesday.

 

Ok, so let me get this all straight...

1) You did a dyno run a year ago and then again this season and it shows a loss of 8hp or 4hp depending on the math you used.

-Did the dyno place ever calibrate the dyno properly in that year?
-Was the environment exactly the same? Was it controlled?

You are saying that you suspect the builder was incompetent while you don't suspect that the dyno place could have easily not done what they should over the course of a year. Why is that not a thought? Did you try another dyno person? Did you question the mapping and the tune you received? Why is this solely the builder?

2) You raced the bike, did track days on the bike and everything over the course of an entire season and you think that you shouldn't have lost any power? Do you understand the idea that these things need serviced and sometimes, refreshening the thing is part of that scheduled service? I know the top end was never replaced. All the valves, the springs, etc... Those parts have a shit pile of miles on them. You couldn't afford to do that so...

3) You essentially are calling out a well respected guy in our industry and he DOES have knowledge of this bike. In fact, a guy that you race against has the same bike and has nothing but praise for the work.

4) It was HIGHLY suggested that you get a valve job done and related services and yet you declined due to funds. You then make comments like "He got over his head" and "couldn't get the issues revolved". You basically didn't have the funds to do a proper build and yet you are sitting here scratching your head wondering why after a year of running the thing that it lost around 5% power.

Chip can attest to the guy's building abilities as well as many other racers on this site and elsewhere. Those comments coming from a guy that does minimal racing and running his race bike in Novice classes as a coach coming on here after a year to complain when it is VERY probable that you were OFFERED a certain level of build, but cut it up so that it was affordable is the bottom line. Not the builder, not the way he did it, not the parts or the process...

Again, then basing that off a dyno run some 12 months ago!! What should have been done was dyno the bike right before delivery to the builder and then again once the bike was done. Doing it a year later is not the norm.

5) Do you understand that at times, engine builds while increasing HP is the idea, if you short cut things and do not do them all together, you cannot assume that the gain is going to be there. It is like a guy getting upset that he buys a full titanium exhaust system and cannot afford the PC/Bazaaz unit and is pissed he cannot get the bike running well. One cannot go without the other... Sure, he lost weight on the bike, but w/o the PC/Bazaaz unit, it isn't going to be optimal in how it performs.


Why is it that the guy with the same bike and built PROPERLY due to him having the right funds can have results that are typical for that bike and actually VERY competitive when compared to typical bikes this builder works on?

To me, the bottom line can be shown as a guy that wanted a true SS build and could only afford something less. He gets something less and feels he should have gotten more.

What you should have done is instead of coming on here and making it sound like the builder was incompetent and ill-informed, you should have simply stated that you had a build done minus any valve job and related and had a dyno run some 12 months later and was wondering what the cause could be.

That would have led people to state that you probably have a bike with a lot of miles that needs refreshed or that maybe you should have had a few other things done at the time and would have had better results. Or, maybe just because you change your oil and add in Stabil, you may need someone with better mechanical skills to work on your bike through the year.

I am almost willing to bet that in that 12 months and all that riding, you haven't yet had the suspension serviced. waiting 12 months and that amount of track time, you should refresh the suspension at least twice a year if not more.

Bottom line is if you are asking what to do for what you had done? Fine. But, dragging the builder into this is silly. He offered and suggested more and you couldn't afford it. He wasn't over his head, dude. Trust me. The guy knows how to build bikes and such. Ask Eddie how fast Jeff's motors are. Eddie has a solid builder doing his stuff also and Jeff has this guy doing his. Jeff's motors are reliable and solid and perform better than expected. A certain top builder has also called this guy for some info. Not going to name drop, but the idea is that the builder you are seemingly making look bad is a solid guy and knows his stuff. You wanted a SS 600, but couldn't take the walk that was needed to complete the task. Blame your funds and not the builder...

Sorry for the rant, but this just started off as it was the builder's fault due to being over his head. There are enough guys posting in this thread to know better. I understand that. However, for the folks considering him and a thread like this pops up, it is silly to think he isn't capable or accomplished enough to work on race bikes. It just could have been approached in a better way as to make it a question as to what to do vs making it sound like it was due to an entry level builder...

 

.. totally agree with everything you say Lizard1 except in the original post he stated the build was done over the winter of 09-10, then in spring (not 12 months of racing and track days) the next dyno run was done at the same shop. I assumed he had NO track time on the bike at that point..

PS: Got the injectors today and Jim told me the injectors were in decent shape, minor pickup of flow after cleaning, but all were even in flow (none flowed less, all same) even pre-cleaning.. not leaking, resistance fine. Even the slight improvement in spray would not have shown that much loss in just the time from one dyno run to the next..

Could be many many factors as some have pointed out that lead to the lower numbers on the post-build. Would be nice to see back to back runs compared to a similar model bike.. There is a chance there is nothing wrong at all ?

 

My basic belief in a dyno is to compare changes on a given motor, not set a baseline that runs true and is constant. I don't really give a fig if the dyno shows A motor at 114 and B motor at 112 six months apart, that is meaningless. It might mean more if the runs were done the same day, with the same tires, tire pressure, gas, air filter, etc etc etc.

 

.. i have seen with my own eyes 4-5hp differences in the pressure of the rear tire, and the size of the rear tire (180 vs 190). We even saw a few hp diff in the MotoST days, when the team i rode for ran a new tire to establish a baseline, but then went right back with a totally shagged tire, of the same size.. 2hp diff in the lighter tire that had no rain sipes left on the sides.

Wish i could have told ya the injectors were the issue.. No harm in having them done, flowin like new.. and that part of the potential issue ruled out is worth some piece of mind.

 

Well shoot. It was worth a try I guess. Thanks for letting me know the results.

Sure, I suppose its possible that there's nothing wrong at all. I've spoken to some others that have the same build done by the same builder on the same model bike and were able to achieve the results I was expecting. I guess this leads me to believe that there are some worn parts in my bike that I'll need to tend to this next off season.

I'm going to go get another dyno on a different machine just for shits and giggles though.

 

Nope, didn't get it straight at all.

 

The second dyno run was after the motor rebuild not a year after. Also, he never said who did the rebuild and said he would rather keep it out of the post.

 

i was just going to say that! yeah who does a s/s build, especially one with 7k on it before without doing a GOOD valve job. Shit you can get a lot of increase in the valve seat area, ESPECIALLY a CBR600RR! They are shit. They are one of the few you can still reface the valve (if allowed) too.

Personally im not a CBR600RR fan. They suck to get power out of compared to the other big 3. The 09+ are turds worse with the ecu mods honda did for USA bikes.

If you have GOOD ring seal and lower end was in good shape. With increased compression via milled head (there is TONS of room on the cbr) and your squish was set right (again TONS of room stock on the cbr) then had the cams timed even close to oem spec with a full good exhaust and mapping done right that bike should be with the Michelin race tire set to @30psi 110rwhp all day long on pump gas and 112-114on say VP U4.4 with a street tire add a few more.

a few things the cbr does not like
1. Like RM pointed out..pulling the servo
2. ignition timing..LEAVE IT THE FXXK STOCK!!!!!!
3. heavy oil..these things can run water almost. honestly.
4. shitty oem valve seats/job. you can really improve the honda head here
5. VERY picky on pipes. I have seen 5 hp between brands on this bike
6. check the fuel filter! the cbr's get clogged easier than others for some reason. Best thing is since 2007 honda wont sell you a filter! lol...you can get another brands to work thou once the filter gets clogged the pump goes to shit FAST..i have seen some of my sbk hondas down like 8hp...i can tell right away cause im having to really add fuel to get a/f right..that tells me pump is weak/filter is clogged.

Good luck. Best thing if you want more hp..sell and buy a R6..not being sarcastic either.

 

ive seen even more...one of my ex wsbk ZX7RR with its 205/16.5" slick was set to @18psi (i forgot it was at track psi) made 153rwhp...i swapped wheels to a stocker with 17" michelin street tire at 35psi... 167rwhp...git sum! was more for seeing what the engine really was making compared to a street gsxr750.

had a busa that was down over 20rwhp..was at 31psi before dyno run...but it had a slow leak customer failed to mention..by 3rd pull i was like "WTF" it had dropped to 11psi..customer "opps forgot to tell you it bleeds down in 15 mins" nice..

 

got any tips for the r6?

 

What do you call a fast leak?

 

lots but everyone on here does ...so it would get ugly fast im sure.

 

Thanks for the info Ed. Exhaust servo is still there, i just removed the cables to the valve. Ignition timing hasn't been changed.

It's helpful to know that the factory valve seats are relatively poor on these models. If I proceed with trying to improve on this motor this will likely be the next step. I also look into the fuel filter.

 

lil OT but with the newer multi hole pintle injectors do you see more or less problems with them?

 

Based on looking at your dyno chart, and what seems to be a lack of peak power(not overall poor performance), and knowing that you are using slotted cam sprockets, cam timing would be the first thing i would check.... get out the dial indicator! you werent lean so its probably not a fueling issue(like clogged injector or filter), u looked good on the leak down, I would check cam timing and put on a generic PC3 map (that was tuned for similar build) to eliminate the possibility of a funky custom tune.

 

If I where you, by the time I read all this, I would have disasemble, checked the timing and asemble the engine in my garage.. hearing some bachata.

3 days work if Im lazy... 2 days if my daugther is around, that brings me good luck...

 

You're right. You actually did get a valve job. Saw the invoice and the details.

I also heard that you did some different things after the build like electrical things. Your buddy that races with you that has a CBR also that has more power was saying that you were doing a bunch of different things.

In my mind, it sounds like you may have caused some issues.

My thoughts? You need to ride the bike and work on your skills vs trying to gain another amount of small hp...

In any case, you making the comment that the builder got over his head is what is really burning my ass. He wasn't, isn't and has built a few CBRs at this stage and the guys that he built for are getting better hp and seemingly are running faster lap times. I think a combination of messing with your bike on your own and the fact that your ability is probably slightly lower than your friend's for example are the results of power loss and slower lap times.

It is weird that the other guys are getting good numbers and you are not. There has to be a reason and it sounds like they know what that is...

Anyways, carry on...

 

Craig, he never said the builder, but he insulted him nonetheless. It is also not a secret who he is talking about via what others have stated on here. You know - the guys that had their CBRs built and are getting good numbers that didn't do weird crap after the build...

He insulted the guy and that's bullshit.

 

Where exactly is the insult? Show me.

He told me up front that mine was the first Honda he'd built. I didn't care though, at least not until I realized that something wasn't right. I don't fault him for that though, the only fault I see is that he didn't see it through until I was satisfied, he should've been the one offering me these suggestions. But as I stated earlier, I could've done a better job pressing him for answers.

But that's not what this thread is about, because none of that matters at this point, which is why I'm not going to say who the builder was. It doesn't matter anymore. This thread was for me to ask for suggestions on finding solutions to the problem. I don't give a shit about the builder at this point, and nobody else that's posted in this thread cares either. But keep posting smart guy, by the time you finish posting his resume' I'm sure some people will probably have figured it out. Nice work genius.

If you hadn't noticed, this thread has been constructive towards it goal, without anyone really caring who the builder was. There's been a lot of good suggestions, including those that I've already looked into (thanks for taking care of the injectors Greg). It's not until you came along trolling (like you always do) that the drama begins... imagine my surprise.

BTW, the only electrical modifications I've made to the bike is to remove the key ignition and the kickstand. I've got a service manual, I'm not an idiot, neither of those things are going to cause this issue.