Supersport Build = Loss of 8 HP

It's called troubleshooting a problem that has no obvious explanation. I'm not taking anything off the table, including the possibility that the dynos themselves might be suspect. Obviously no one would expect to lose power after these motor modifications are done,and obviously there are a ton of variables to sort through. One of the variables which is most likely for error is the dyno itself, which is why I got another one.

 

Yes, it was a net loss of 4 HP, not 8. So you're saying that you would be satisfied with a net LOSS of 4 HP? Isn't the point of the build to gain horsepower? Had I known there would be a loss don't you think I would've just kept the money for hookers and blow?

 

New Dyno Results

So last night I had Dyno Tune Motorsports in Columbus perform another test on the bike. This is a different tuner than tuned the bike originally, although it was also performed on a Dayton Dyno. The bike now has 7000 miles. I checked the tire pressure, lubed the chain, changed the oil ya da ya da on the bike before the dyno was performed. The results of the first test pass was 105 HP which is consistent with the post-build test that was performed a year ago. However, Brian at DTM noted that the avg A/F ratio was too lean.

Brian spent almost two hours tuning the map (PC3) at each throttle position. It was 11 PM by the time we were done. This guy is a machine and almost insisted that we stick around to get the mapping done yesterday. He knew he'd be short on time by the end of the week and that I needed the bike back for this weekend, so he wanted to keep going. He really did a very thorough job, and I would highly recommend DTM for anyone in the central Ohio area.

Net result, after the second mapping that mostly entailed enriching the A/F mix above 40% throttle = 111.9 HP

So this is a nearly 3 HP increase over the initial baseline which was set in 2008. Not what I would consider a significant gain, but more importantly not a loss. I take all of this with a grain of salt, but to have a tuner identify a problem with the map and to get me back to or above where I started helps. There might be more power to found in there, but I'm shelving the efforts until this winter when I'll have time to get the motor refreshed and have some other items like valves and timing inspected/optimized.

 

+2 for Brian as I said before. I've had him do all my bikes and hes aways done a great job. As for being down to roughy 112 hp from the built motor, I'd almost say thats about where it should be given considerations to everything.

Just my thoughts and experiances, but Non-Built motors for the CBR are only 108-110hp. Being just above that shows me that the compression is still there slightly, but the thing definitely needs a refresh to get it back to to mid-high teens. Depending on what/where you want to spend money on or do in the future, you have a few options still. Giving considerations to what else you have done to the bike (suspenion/mods/etc) you can either get the motor redone and keep going or consider moving to another bike that will make future hp easier to find etc. I came to this same debate last winter with my CBR and chose to keep going with it for another year or two.

 

And here I thought Kreskin was dead.

 

Yes it's called toubleshooting or R&D and it's a scientific process. You talk about variables and one of the keys to this process is eliminating variables so you have measurable repeatable results. Changing dynos is not eliminating a variable it's introducing one. Dynos are not suspect or bad unless they produce wildly varying results on the same bike on the same day under the same conditions.

I never stated that the horse power results were acceptable, I just pointed out that your scientific method for resolving this issue is non existent.

 

Wow. Logic.

Tim, you reading this and understanding it?

I find it funny that you ended up assessing that you lost 4 hp, did some crap to the bike post the build and now, you get it dyno'd and tuned and you gain from what you started with losing 8 hp to gaining 3 on top of it all. Really, getting an 11 hp increase.

This on a bike that has two full seasons on it since the build (done in Feb, 2009) and then what you've raced this season. I'd say you might have jumped the gun on claiming it was a build issue...

Then again, you changed the hp numbers from the start and then go to a different dyne guy so, we all have no idea what the real gains were. Being that all dynes can vary, you very well could have gained a LOT more than before. The dyne you went to at the start could have been reading higher than the dyne you just had the bike at or vice, versa...

The point is that you eliminated the ability to control the situation and it is all moot now. You are saying a 3 hp gain, but what if the dyne you just went to was reading lower than the one you started with? Meaning, it could be off by as much as 3-5 hp and really could have been a 8 hp gain...

Sounds to me that the PC was not right and not tuned properly from the start which at the point of having an engine worked on and built is as bad as you not wanting to use brand new internals. It is a waste of money.

Anyways, you are now at a point where you cannot come to a solid conclusion... Good job.

 

It was built in early 09 and then ran that season and last year plus at least one race event this season... Plus, he never put in new parts due to budget...

 

And this affects you how? How would you have any idea how often this bike has been ridden? I don't know where you're getting your facts, especially this budget crap.

 

Craig-

I haven't been kicked off any forums.

Secondly, he was saying some pretty stupid things even though not mentioning names. Plus, two other guys on here plus myself know who he refers to and we are just simply backing up the fact that the guy is top notch. Plus, anyone that is really running a serious racing program knows him and respects him.

My deal was that when you say such negative things without any reason, that's pretty much as bad as slandering the guy by naming him. I think after the fact here, you can tell that money was an issue, he didn't do what was suggested based on limits of funds and then he did stuff post build (proof with the PC settings) that restricted what was done. To say the builder was in over his head is simply not true and slanderous.

You also have recently become a bit of a child in your retorts and actions against me. I don't really care that you dislike me and everything you say and do. Sad really. But, I understand.

 

You are a ridiculous person.

 

One, you mentioned that you used it in track days for coaching, you raced on it and had used it as a primary track machine. That's two seasons, Tim. That's a long time in engine build terms.

Also, you think I don't talk to people? Tell us why you didn't have new parts put in when brought up? Rather when suggested?

Just answer that and we will be good...

Again, you stated you used it for that stuff and those times. That's longer than most would recommend and after that time, loss is going to happen as mentioned by others that you do not have a beef with and that are not "trolling" as you seem to think I do...

Anyways, good luck. Now that you have power to the bike, maybe you can beat your buddy with the same bike and build.

 

This was in response to Craig. Not you, tough guy...

 

No, I don't think you talk to people. I think you get pieces of information off the internet and twist them in your confused mind. I think you relate to everyone in your life via PMs, text messages, and emails because it's easy for you, simple black and white.

I think you live an E-thug life behind your keyboard with your windows closed, denying that the people you are speaking to on the internet are actual people, not the charicatures that your simple mind is trying to create and simplify because you can't handle the acceptance of the opinions of other people.

Case in point, somewhere in your typing/texting/PM'ing you have captured a piece of information that your mind has used to create a friend for me who rides the same bike/build as I do. I'm glad you are able to create friends for yourself in your e-reality, but in my reality and social circles there is no one riding this same model bike which was built by "he who shall not be named". I mean, do you really think you know so much about everything that you can tell me who my friends are? You're nuts dude, I really have no idea wtf you're talking about.

Go outside, smell the flowers, get out from behind your keyboard for a while. You really need the break.

 

Hey Kiggy, you'll probably get an apologetic PM from Brian soon, if you haven't already.
That's usually how he operates when he attempts to save face after his pathetic antics of trying to piss on us 'peons.'

Brian really enjoyed himself while belittling me for being on the team that won the 2009 WERA National LWT Endurance Championship.

I was told, in his own words, that I should 'do some real racing against real racers and teams in the MW and HWT classes. A LWT championship doesn't mean shit.'
I later got an ass-kissing PM from him. Funny shit really.

 

First, I talk to people. Unlike you, Tim, I actually am in the industry and actually talk to people that matter. In fact, I was at a certain person's house the other day and saw first hand the invoice that even you had no clue as to what work you had done...

As for the guy that races the same bike, it was said that he knew who you were, considered you an acquaintance and stated that his thoughts were that you really need to twist the throttle more. Dunno. If you say you are not friends, that's fine, but the reality is that he does know you, does have a CBR and says you were talking about the things you did to your bike... Those aren't fictitious and we can name names if you want...

Also, talking to people via PMs and Texts are a medium that is used quite frequently and used to communicate between real life people. GOSH!!! I know you may be behind the times a tad, but believe it or not, I even text my boss! SAY IT AIN'T SO!!

Finally, you say I am an E-Thug guy. This coming from a guy that in about every thread you and I go at it, you reduce the intelligence with name calling and even derogatory comments and threats. I remember the last little e-battle and you went into name calling and popped a gasket.

Unfortunately, I think the issue is that you tend to write it all off as me having an issue. You comment that I am mental, that I have personal problems and that I am someone that is one person on here vs reality.

You show your face to me at the track the next time and I will call a spade a spade. I will tell you to your face the same things I say here. Try me. I will refrain from the name calling and low end responses that seem to be your M.O., but I will tell you point blank the answers to any questions or my response to any comments you have the nuts to make.

It's quite simple really, Timothy... You are a guy with issues and even though you like to try and divert that onto others or try and point the conversation in other directions instead of answering legit questions, there are others that are going to see through it all.

You have some things to consider regarding this topic:

1) Dynos are different. The same dyno can read different one day to the next. The latest dyno very well could have been reading lower than the original one you were at. So, with this new found gain, it could actually be higher than what you saw originally.

2) Dyno operators can be different.

3) You adding things to a bike after a build CAN cause issue. That was shown with the poorly set-up PC that was tuned seemingly better from your last dyno visit...

4) Parts wear out. You mentioned how many thousands of miles your bike had before the build. There was need for fresh, new parts. You declined. Maybe you are calling the builder a liar? I didn't text or PM him. I was at his shop last week... Yes, in person...

5) Two seasons. Two. That's a long time on a SS build as you mentioned was performed. Ask the resident tuners here. Track day coaching in Novice group, any group and racing it in those two seasons is something that wears on things.



not sure why I am wasting my time with the bullet points, but call me crazy. Must be my E-Thuggin life style...

My final comment as to why I am on here responding. Again, you call it trolling. The guy you say is over his head and have essentially insulted - by the way, he feels the same way - is a friend of mine and is a professional that feeds his kids with the job he does. So, I took offense and am really standing up for him. He's a great guy, has the know how and unlike what you have stated, he wasn't over his head, knew what was going on and how to check and asses things.

 

Nope, no apologies to Tim. He's a guy that everyone has around them. He's a guy that I will never apologize to and will not respect.

As for your comment, I apologized because I was over the back and forth and felt that it was easier to apologize for belittling your accomplishments. I never said you need to race the big boys, but I did say that your comments about how great you were was suspect in that when you mention you are a national champion - your words - it was really a team effort in the LW class of the National Endurance series and not something like say, being the National 600 SS Expert champion. Champions are champions, but you were using it as if it was a single rider title and not the team title...

Telling people that you are a national champion to gt them to swing off your nuts is fine. Usually, those that have to state the accomplishments are usually those that need to speak up vs letting actions speak for themselves.

Good to see that you decided to keep it professional. That was a while ago also and we've never met in person. Tim and I have met, I have seen him ride, seen him talk to others, etc. My opinions are from what I see and hear. You, I gave the benefit of the doubt... I still will...

As for apologies and what I do, I have done so when it involved my family, when it effected some things with the track day company I work with, etc. Nothing more and nothing less as things have tended to get over the top and I respect that emotions can get out of hand. I never hear back from a few like yourself, but others have responded and even have become better acquainted. I am human. But, I realize things and reach out at times. Tim ain't getting that...

 

Brian, apparently I'm not the only one tired of you crap online as you have been called out on it more than once lately. You can call it childish or whatever you want. I don't see the need to start slamming someone when a company was never stated. You say its from what others have posted but Tim has not stated who it was, therefore what others have posted are heresy. It just seams that you have some urge to argue with people.

 

Craig-

Re-read my posts above. It is a friend that makes his living on doing this stuff. He was insulted and I read comments that were uncalled for. You can say what you want as you seemingly have an agenda against anything I say and feel everything is a targeted response or me stirring the pot. Whatever you want to call it, call it that. But, it is a friend and a respected guy. Me standing up for him is something anyone in the same position would do.

Tim doesn't see it as an insult and that's the issue. But, I guess you do not either.

We are pass that now. I am done with anything having to do with Tim. He's a guy that rubs me the wrong way and as of late, I have been fairly quiet on boards. This is the only thing I have gotten deep into as of late and it is simply due to friendship. You don't see that and it's fine. Just keep the petty comments via PM or in person.

Thanks.

 

I used to get 2-3 hp difference on my own dyno from a tire compound or pressure change, I ended up using a specific 'dyno tire' and the same pressure each time to remove some of the variables. You can also get 1-2hp change depending on the day, and time of the day. Running the bike at 9am in summer will give you a different result to 3pm in summer.

It is pretty easy to 'cheat' a dyno number if you know what you are doing as well, some dyno operators make the 'after' number bigger than it really is, to keep the customer happy and coming back. The dyno people with good reputations, like Rick (RM Racing) and Kevin (KWS) dont play games like that.