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R6 Generations

Discussion in 'Tech' started by Kurlon, Oct 30, 2016.

  1. Kurlon

    Kurlon Well-Known Member

    [​IMG]

    You are all equally responsible for this, you're all enablers, the lot of ya.
     
  2. Can we enable you to paint it? Lordy.
     
    Bypass likes this.
  3. Kurlon

    Kurlon Well-Known Member

    What, Yamaha blue and Bass Boat Orange aren't a good combo? I've got a can of safety highlighter green around here somewhere for trim work...

    If it sees a paint job this year it'll be a simple single color rattle can job. Given my last attempt, I'm wary of trying again.

    Anyone got a stash of Morse fairing stay ears for 2nd gen R6s? Got a front fairing stay and one full ear, plus the remains of one that sacrificed it's life in the line of duty...

    Is there supposed to be ram air plumbing between the nose of the fairing and the snorkels sticking out of the frame?
     
  4. Bypass

    Bypass Well-Known Member

    Yes there's supposed to be ram air tubes there. They go for about 15-20 on ebay I believe.

    Also if you're needing parts or want a spare bike I saw this on craigslist. Dude is selling/parting out an 05 R6. Lots of track goodies etc too. Woulda snapped it up myself but I decided to move up to a 4th gen.

    http://nashville.craigslist.org/mcy/5896576202.html
     
  5. Kurlon

    Kurlon Well-Known Member

    Found the ram air tubes in the box o bits, and a piece I assume ties to the fairing to provide more of a tunnel for them to sit into... I'll sort something out.

    A spare bike would be awesome, but the bank has informed me that I'm at my spending cap for now. In the mean time I need a new front fairing stay, a couple motor mount bolts or replacement slider set, and either a brake master rebuild kit or a new master, plus levers. The CRG labeled ones that came with are preloading the piston in the master causing the front brakes to pump up over a very short window. (Debating buying a $300 chinese 30L ultrasonic cleaner off eBay to help with the R&R on the brakes.) Lastly I need to see why it's so pig rich, pop the airbox, check the filter, sync the throttle bodies and then see what map is in the PC3 I suppose.
     
  6. NemesisR6

    NemesisR6 Gristle McThornbody

    I only paint my bikes in single stage rattle can. I use John Deere blitz black. Goes on easy and looks better than most any other "matte" finish that I've come across.

    Sure, it's not as durable as a professional job, but I can simply scuff it up and re-spray it every couple seasons for very little $.
     
  7. Kurlon

    Kurlon Well-Known Member

    I might try the 'Ford Blue' from that same paint line, depending on how things go. Job one is getting the bike running and sorted.

    Pulled the tank, I floored the bike even tried to start on the ancient gas that's in it, stinky old crap. I can't find it with my siphon tube, what's the easiest, less mess way to drain it? Power to the pump and a hose off the outlet? Injectors will absolutely be coming out for a trip to the cleaner.

    Confirmed, no slide stops, airbox interior is clean but the filter is knackered so it'll be getting a fresh OEM unit. AIS is still in place, doubt anyone's been into the motor. I've gotten spoiled working on my carbureted FZR, so much less plumbing and wiring and more plumbing... and more plumbing... Throw a rack of FCRs on this bike and it would shed 50lbs instantly. :D

    PC3 has the generic 'R6 with pipe' map on it, and ye olde initial release firmware that requires the 'programmer' module to update.
     
  8. Kurlon

    Kurlon Well-Known Member

    For those of you that glued your slides, what did you use for glue?
     
  9. Kurlon

    Kurlon Well-Known Member

    And are people keeping the 'plunger control unit' for easier cold starts or ditching it to toss some extraneous plumbing?
     
  10. Kurlon

    Kurlon Well-Known Member



    It runs, had to pull the PC3 to get it somewhat behaving. Looks like the PC3's idea of full throttle and the bike's are on two different planets. With the PC3 in the loop the bike is hard starting, often missing one or more cylinders and only responds to throttle AFTER you've returned to closed position. With it gone the bike fires up, idles nicely, and while not as fast responding to light input as my FZR + FCR setup is actually behaving properly. Still doesn't want to take full throttle yet though. I've pulled and cleaned the pump and screen, it's got clean gas in it now, going to run through the diags to make sure everything reads normal then start tearing it down to get to the plugs for a read and swap.
     
  11. Kurlon

    Kurlon Well-Known Member

    So, I'm trying to research the Graves slide stops mod, and something's fishy with the details. (I've pinged Graves, they will officially no longer provide any info on this gen machine, which stinks.)

    Or the 2003 to 2004 units they sold slide stops with a spacer to go between the fuel rail and pressure regulator to up the fuel rail pressure, saying this is required for the slide stops to work properly. (Remap required of course.) For 2005 Yamaha upped the fuel rail pressure out of the crate, spacer no longer required. Yamaha also bumped up the diameter of the throttle bodies. The R6S slide stop kits (06 to 09) also do not come with the spacer, and went back to the 03/04 sized throttle bodies.

    Looking at the Yamaha part numbers I would expect to see some changes based on higher fuel rail pressure. The only changes I can see are the pressure regulator itself changed in 05. Oddly, the R6S machines went back to the 03/04 regulator. No other differences that I can spot.

    So... if the R6S didn't need a bump in fuel rail pressure to work with the slides, why did the 03/04 machines?
     
  12. emry

    emry Can you count? 50 Fucking what?

    Errr. As far as I remember the R6/s ,models all are 42.6 psi for fuel pressure.:confused: Why did Graves bump it, then not bother. That's is easy; the R6s wasn't a "race bike" to them anymore and Chuck could make 0.02 cents more per package by leaving it out.

    It was probably included to make up for OEM (EPA) mapping so that someone that dropped serious coin at least felt like it did something.
     
  13. boxcrash

    boxcrash Loading.....Please Wait

    Nice! I had an 04 I tracked, I loved it...wish we did not have to part ways. I still actually have some bits hoping I would run into another some day cheap....

    If not, I would still have it for sure....one thing I liked about it was the cluster allowed you to access fuel/air ratio's and etc to make your own adjustments.

    That 05 is in my neck of the woods, and with inverted always the Holy Grail to me of that Gen.....I still have a set of fairings...wonder all it needs. Oh Lord, I could hear the wife now if I got another bike....
     
  14. Kurlon

    Kurlon Well-Known Member

    Current plan is to buy an 05 throttle body rack to scavenge the regulator and send the injectors out for a cleaning. Has anyone swapped to 05 throttle bodies and gotten dyno data on that change that is up for sharing the results? If there is no drawback I'll just swap racks, if it costs any low or midrange I'll go through the effort of swapping the regulator/injectors onto the 03 rack.
     
  15. Kurlon

    Kurlon Well-Known Member

    I've done some more research, turns out my first pass looking at parts numbers was tainted by a source trying to be helpful and only listing the current superseded to part numbers. In addition to 2005s getting a unique pressure regulator, there were three generations of pumps, 03-04, 05, and 06-08.

    Looking at the Yamaha service manuals, they use the same pressure test numbers and specs for all the years. The supplemental manual for the 05 calls out the larger throttle bodies and how to ID them, but does not alter the pressure specs. This meshes with the pressure sensor part number being consistent.

    I also found pics and specs for the 'pressure booster' Graves used to sell. It's essentially a press in 'jet' that goes in front of the OEM pressure bleed off assembly. I don't know as it's accurate to call it a pressure booster. If you charge the system and then turn off the pump the system will bleed back down to the same pressure as it would without the jet. It'll just spike for a moment when the pump fires.

    From what I've read of others monkeying with their 2nd gen R6s what is going on is either the first year pump has too much initial flow lag, or the 03-04 ECU is too slow to refire the pump under demand, resulting in a pressure dip when you nail the throttle. The restrictor fights this by slowing the bleed down time, giving everything a chance to catch up with smoother pressure levels during the transition?

    The regulator has an ambient air pressure reference port that Yamaha ties into the vacuum system on the throttle bodies. Under high vacuum it'll actually open sooner, lowering pressure. Pull the feed so it's always seeing atmosphere and people are reporting much stabler pressure under operation. I'm thinking this was done in conjunction with the slides as a means of doing an automatically ramped up richening of the fuel flow under throttle to coincide with the slides moving (and altering the vacuum seen by the regulator) as the ECU doesn't have a way of knowing exactly what state the slides are in. I'm defeating the slides so... I'm going to cap the vacuum tee and leave the regulator open to the atmosphere.
     
  16. emry

    emry Can you count? 50 Fucking what?

    What? The pump runs constantly when the engine is running at makes around 80psi at 25GPH. The regulator allows excess flow to return to the tank, this is how pressure is limited. No lag, no ECU whatever.... There is always a pressure drop when injectors open, when injector duration is increased the pressure drop lasts longer. Fuel has mass, system reaction to changes in flow is based on that.

    No. The restrictor imposes a restriction when flow is high through the regulator, like at idle and will help increase pressure during that time, this richens the mixture. Pulling the vacuum reference acts in a similar way.

    Let's keep this all simple. The slides are designed to limit airflow into the engine and keep air speed though the intake system high. Big flat slide carbs were a pain to ride. While FI solves some of this, maximizing intake efficiency is still key to making power. Slides were a stop gap on FI.

    On a FI system that does not monitor fuel pressure there are two important things the ECU needs to know to match fuel to airflow. Is the rail pressure vacuum referenced or static. In a vacuum referenced system fuel pressure across the injector is considered to be constant, the vacuum will reduce fuel pressure in the rail when intake vacuum is high, so the pressure drop across the injector is effectively static. In a static system fuel rail pressure is constant and the ECU will adjust based on intake air pressure, pressure drop across the injector is highest at idle and lowest at WOT, mapping is changed accordingly.

    When you dink around with fuel pressure or the method of controlling pressure you are just making a mapping nightmare and changing the basis for how the system operates in a non-monitored manner. If you want it richer, use the power commander.

    While I applaud your industriousness, understanding how the system operates and responds to changes might yield you better gains through reduced workflow and systematic measurable testing. Retracing engineering steps that have been completed back in the 60's makes us feel smart, but if your goal to improve the bike is your main focus, the fact that the engineers moved on to different systems displays a certain amount of evolutionary dead-end to this.
     
    haygood and MELK-MAN like this.
  17. Kurlon

    Kurlon Well-Known Member

    So, I will be running a PC3 (unless I get my hands on a PC5) on the bike, and will be having it fully mapped. That's a given.

    On the fuel pump, I can't actually hear if it's running with the engine going but I do note it shuts off once the engine stops, and there is a fuel pressure sensor so I was under the impression that it was cycling rather than running constant. Knowing it's constant is a nice data point. I also never considered the pressure differential across the injectors in my thought process, big gaff there on my part, thank you for the correction!

    And I get that the bike is at an evolutionary dead end, but it's the bike I'm playing with so... I'm still going to explore and tinker. Just like I do with my other dodos, a 1992 FZR400 an a 1992 WR250ZD. I'm still curious why Graves stopped including that restrictor then...
     
  18. emry

    emry Can you count? 50 Fucking what?

    Yamaha's (moto's, SxS, etc.),prime the pump during key on. Once running the pump runs constantly. There is no Fuel Pressure sensor. As for Graves, ask Chuck. That is his baby. Cant say the last time I saw him have some interest here though. Remember that he is a racer running a race team, not the developer. He is in the business of retail, not wholesale.

    Good luck and I hope to see you on the track. And pass you. ;)
     
    MELK-MAN likes this.
  19. Kurlon

    Kurlon Well-Known Member

    [​IMG]

    Got a present coming to you Melk-man! Changing jets is so much easier...
     
    MELK-MAN likes this.
  20. Kurlon

    Kurlon Well-Known Member

    YEC ECU worth the effort (light wiring harness tweaking) on this gen?
     

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