Another 350gp questions

Well coming in from the OUTSIDE, building a new bike and attending the races, this is how I SEE the GP-CB.
Engine: Carefully assembled standard engine within factory over-bores. Stock, unmodified carburetors (chokes may be removed). Airbox may be removed and replaced with individual air filters or bellmouths. Any exhaust system, excluding undertail or modern cannister type mufflers. Stock or electronic ignition permitted. No porting, polishing or polished valves. No aftermarket springs or retainers, cams or rockers. Any head gasket permitted. Kickstart mechanism may be removed.
Chassis: Standard frame, brackets removed. Spot welds rewelded. No bracing.
Any swing arm bushings. Any twin shock, non reservoir shocks. Any period type fork up to 38mm. Any OEM type drum brakes. Alloy rims of stock diameter allowed up top 2.75" wide.
Bodywork: Stock tanks, period type racing seat.
Thats my take on the honda 350 twin in GP350 as it exist and I like it.

 

You guys may be on to something....we need to get back to the point.

1. In WERA 350 GP, index rule honda 350 twin, The list of modifications allowed does not include frame bracing. We tried "policing ourselves", and came up with 2 different interps.

2. A WERA official chimed in with a clarification that frame bracing was indeed, not listed, and therefore not allowed. Actually we proposed verbage on "no frame bracing" to be added to the limitations section.

3. We heard from people who were involved in the rules committe. They verified that their intent was to not have braced frames.

4. We started discussing "lesser" mods that were common, that we should list as allowed...neck bearings, chokes, starter, kickstarter, tab removal, welding seams, etc. (I still need to accumulate a list).....actual constructive comments.

Gents, as far as I'm concerned, Mongo's clarification and comments ended the "Debate" here. Mongo, is there where you see things?

Lets move on to actually doing something instead of debating....I believe there is a deadline involved.

 

35mm for the forks.

-tt

 

i dont know how many people are actually on the rules committee, or were when there was a vintage rules committee. things have changed since then. it was explained to me, by 2 of the rules committee members that the motor was the defining piece. not the frame. a 38-40 hp 350 ducati will never have a 30hp cb350 hanging with it. (all things even) no matter how many braces you add. a 250ducati is a much closer match up and even then its a draw. that is what i was told the concern was with indexing the cbs in. not frame bracing. it was never addressed because it ws thoughtit didnt matter. and after all, it is a gp class, and cbs are not true gp bikes even barely making the cutoff date. the uscra rules spell it out. its clear. i think the intent of the fcb class is much different though. the wera rules do not which leaves it open to interpretation as far as i am concerned. at least the way they are in the last rule book. i said i might be pushing some issues because what i was doing was not immediately addressed in the rule book. not a letter. nor could i find the "if its not mentioned, its not legal". as with the uscra rules which states anything not mentioned, is a no no. (unless the rig is grndfathered) i had no issue myself with what i was doing, and was not intentionally building a "cheater". not that anyone has accused me of that. but i built a bike that i knew would push the limits a little. i built a bike i knew a percentage of people would have no issues with whatsoever, but also i had a feeling there could be an equal percentage who did. nothing i did i felt like was specifically against the rules. what can i say, i like black and white.

when john early looked at chris' bike and commented it wasnt legal for gp, all i could say was, show me in the rules where it specifically says this is not. intention is great, but its not concrete. i would hope that the rules makers are smarter than we are and would see this coming. how could they not? but thats the clarification that needs to be made. no, i dont want to have to bump to v1. everysingle v1 bike on the grid has tons of motor on me. yes, we all run at the same time, but you only get scored for finishing in your class. and thats whats its really about. racing against your buddies and moving the bar if you can.

I dont know that this is the right time to be changing the rules. Maybe a grandfather clause is the right way to go here as it seems there is a consensus that it really makes no difference. maybe any bike that has been entered into gp thats braced can continue to do so, but no new entries. the vin numbers are there. we as regional riders know whos been there and who hasn't. I dont know, seems like it might be a good way to go. maybe im just an idiot. im not just out for myself here as i know there are other braced rigs who have run. It also seems there is no one proving that a braced frame actually makes enough of a difference. and yes, sean rang in, and i think hes keeping an open mind about it. saying he will change the rules to allow for whatever as long as it is good with us, the riders, and keeps things even. seems more than fair.

wow, i never would have thought it would have evolved into this! and i never though id be in the eye this much. but great banter. i still have legal carbs.

i thought you had to use a "stock" headgasket. how about stock clutch springs? anyone weigh a barnett clutch plate? how about having a type1 cam ground from megacycle? rules dont say anything about having to use a stock tank. the uscra rules i believe say stock oem SPEC for motor parts. does a welded up megacycle cam weigh the same as a stock cam? this can go on and on. i like tims thinking. we should be including, not excluding. if differences can be proven as being advantageous, then it should be considered. i really dont think thats happened. yet.

loved the split bumper. the big grill rocked.

jc

 

rulebook

In the last 2 years I have seen in mentioned in the general forum that the WERA rulebook is "If it doesn't say you can, then you can't" this all pertained to modern bikes but I would assume the same holds true for vintage.

This new slow guy is going back to his F500 2 stroke corner now....

 

This would be the reason I stay as far from spec classes as posible.someone is always stepping over the line or they think you are.They suck worse then 2 strokes.

 

GP350 forks

"any diameter period forks to class maximum diameter"

"Suspension: Forks: All machines must use period type forks. Maximum diameter is: GP, V 1, V 2, Formula 500 and V 3 - 38mm."

Straight from the WERA rules.

I see 38mm.

 

yeah, i think it is 38.

well, i think this is actually all uncalled for as at least the ne and ma gp grids are all pretty happy with each other. im guessing that not much is actually going to change there regardless of what the rules actually say. weve gone this far, and been happy with no issues and i see it continuing. its about racing, not about the letter of the rule so much for us. we are self governing, and pretty happy about where things are right now. we as a group are pretty close, even gong so far as to chat on the the phone with each other regularly and trade email. and alot of us are all on the same boards. i know there are at least 5 of us that frequent the same places. tex, rosco, tim, alex, myself, whatevs, and a few others. and im not being pushy or pretentious, but we really seem to have no problems with each others machinery. and i would expect if someone did, it would be dealt with before something like protests start flying and feelings are hurt and rules are changed. like rosco said, we are all gentleman. and as i was building my bike, i was informing everyone of them of the mods i was making. no secrets. its nice to read the rules, and make interpretations, and thats what they are there for. i dont think its something that can easily cover every single aspect of building the bike. like someone said recently, the frd rules "became like 18 pages long". i really dont think that is required of us as we all have become close competitors, but also friends who can agree on whats right and not right. and i think we are all on the same wavelength. i realize we are not the only guys out on the grid. but it seems the real gp bikes are usually not an issue for us. they are most of the time long gone. well, and dean too. but he doesnt even have a braced frame. anyway, i would prefer to see it stay the way it is, with out adding rules, and changing wording. i dont think its needed. will it be in the future? maybe. but i dont think yet.

joe

 

sorry, you're right. USCRA/FCB is 35mm, so damn, i'm cutting myself short with WERA on purpose...i really appreciate that kind of insight.

best-
tt

 

Hey Joe....I was told there were several issues addressed in the committe, including frame bracing, and motors....you can read the rules and pick the issues addressed out.

When you say this: the uscra rules spell it out. its clear do you mean this statement: Any modifications not specifically listed above shall not be permitted..... correct?

If I'm with ya there.....I agree that the WERA 350 rule is not as direct. You commented on some proposed verbage earlier, correct?...I think it was focused more on bracing directly.....you are saying make it more of an "overall" statement?....

I like that, cuz we have been bantering about the "If it doesnt say you can, you cant" for several posts....I agree 100% Joe.

Proposal: Add: Any modifications not specifically listed shall not be permitted.

Aye?....Nay?

Thats what I'm sayin....lets move forward while we have the chance.

I dont think anyone (I'm not, for sure) is trying to say you built your bike to intentionally break the WERA rules.....

Just trying to clean up the rules.

Tex stumbled onto something that has bothered me...his choke plate comment...the rule doesnt say "Metal", it say "Material". Yeah, the chokes would still be Material, but....thats why I proposed adding chokes to the"Allowed" list....that rule as written would apply to any "Material" in the motor....not sure exactly what that means....

On the grandfather thing....that sure wouldnt be my call....but I guess it could be an option....is it in the rulebook anywhere?

ProposalMaybe a one season waiver or something?

***** How many bikes up there are affected by WERA No Bracing Allowed....we have none currently racing down here.....zero....nadda. This might play into the grandfather thing, if its even possible.

I understand timing is not the best.....we start 9 feb.

On your last paragraph.....I use standard Athena gasket sets, nuttin fancy I dont think. I installed Barnett stock CB replacement clutchs, no carbon or nothing, just aftermarket, OEM stock springs....now cams we have discussed, all of us are using OEM Cams. Is the cam you are talking about megacycles street cam?

One thing I will say though fellas...I test fighter plane structures for a living, and bracing DOES make a difference....period.....now how much of a difference could be debated until we break out the strain gauges, load cell's and data loggers....which aint gonna happen (that would be cool).....BUT...

I dont think anyone on here can stand up and say that it makes no difference at all....can we agree on that?

TT is correct on the 35MM forks brad, and seriously, that is enough for our bikes....Your other stuff is pretty close to the mark as well sir!

Hey Brad (DrGonzo)....didnt you start this thread?

 

Brad, you are right it is 38mm.....where did I get 35 from...sorry...but I'm still using my stock 33's.

 

Charlie, where does it say 35mm in the rules? I don't see that at all.

"350 GP
Pre 1970 2 stroke twins up to 250cc.
Pre 1968 4 stroke twins up to 350cc.
Pre 1969 4 stroke singles up to 350cc.
Pre 1979 factory road racers up to 125cc.
Honda 350cc twins with the following limitations: OEM Honda twin frame and swingarm, OEM, stock, non-modified engine parts (no material removed or added), OEM carburetors (jets may be changed). The following modifications are allowed: aftermarket cam chain and cam chain tensioners, any ignition system and coils, any internal expanding drum brakes, any diameter period forks to class maximum diameter, any period exhaust system, any period body work/fairing."

Class=GP

Suspension: Forks: All machines must use period type forks. Maximum diameter is: GP, V 1, V 2, Formula 500 and V 3 - 38mm. V 4, V 5 and Formula 2 Stroke –43mm. V 6 and V 7 – 45mm max. Upside Down forks are permitted in Formula 2 Stroke, V 5, V 6 and V 7 only.

No, beechkingd started this'un. I just jumped in and hung on!

 

Nevermind.
Yeah well I'm still waiting on my new POINTS to get here so don't whine to me about your wimpy forks! lol

 

I've got points and weights if you need to borrow em.

I've also got a dyna on a mike ewer plate you can borrow.

Not complaining about my forks buddy!....but ya know what? I've had no real issues with it. Crashed at Kershaw last year and bent one up....but no real bad chatter, tankslappers or anything.....stock 33.

 

Let me see if I can get this thing runing good on my point set up, if not I might take ya up on that dyna.
Been working on my bellypan.
Stop being so nice on here..I already has a good comeback lined up and waiting..lol!
brad

 

Damnnnnnn..Charlie,if you would work on your bikes as much as you type....you could have a bike that runs and do track time with me and Kieth...we sure are going to have fun....

 

v1 here i come!

tex

 

i tend to side with buff here. i dont honestly think the bracing doesn't do much. not on something with such little hp. speculating is great, but i just dont see that it makes that much of a difference. and without seeing it in the results, i see no reason to go changing anything. i would imagine on a 48-50 hp cb, it would almost be required as the frame will probably twist itself to death. especially on corner exit. without having a degree in mechanical or structural engineering, and metalurgy, or physics, i honestly have no idea what to do or where it should go. i just put some crap on my frame where people said to put it. then made it look nice. i know there are 4 cbs that have for sure run with some kind of bracing. that i know of and have intimate knowledge of. i cant say for any other bikes as i dont honestly pay that close attention. the real question is, are people benefitting from doing it enough to warrant changing the rules to reflect that. i dont think so. is the rule too vaque and allowing enough of a performance gap to need a change. still dont think so. and my opinion is this same applying to welding the frame, detabbing, and any of the other stuff weve covered. as far as im concerned, if you ask me, there is no reason to change any of the rules, and there is no real issue other than the symantics. and until it actually becomes an issue, its probably best being left alone. i guess i really just dont see it.

as for the grandfathering of cbs to fcb, it was agreed out of the rule book for the bikes in that class. because they were moving all of the cbs out of gp an into fcb. they changed the rules to establish the basic beginers class. and it has been very successful that way. realize though the the uscra is a very small club compared to wera. i cant even tell you how old the online rule book is. ive been a member for 10 years and i think ive gotten one rule book actually in print, in hand. the intention of the class is much different than what is happening with wera in gp. but the rules prior to the separation of the cbs was what wera modeled the gp cb's after. so using the fcb rules is not really the best bench mark. well, i wouldnt solely use that.

i am running a stock, 40 year old fat cam. right out of the motor. i took it out, cleaned the oil off, and put it into this motor. the uscra rules say oem spec. there was a rider who had megacycle weld him up a type1 fat cam. which is not within the spirit of the rules, i dont think, but it is still technically legal. so i have no problem with it. i cant beat the guy anyway. i was just trying to make the point that if youre adding things to the rules, i dont see clutches covered in there. and how many people are running barnett clutches right? does anyone have a real problem with it? not really. is there an advantage that can be proved, i dunno. i know i love my barnett clutch. so would shimming clutch springs be legal? are aftermarket clutch springs legal? if not, how can a barnett clutch be? i know ive been beat by guys riding more stock bikes than i ride. with alot less of a machine. on many occasions. i was reinforcing buffs point that it wont stop there. i could even make an argument with gaskets regarding the stock motor stuff. right? and how are velocity stacks legal on carbs?? i thnk it just becomes waay bigger than frame bracing, and i just dont think it needs to go there.

as far as what went on when the bikes were let in. i wasnt there. and its obvious you werent there. i cant say for sure what happened. what i did do was ask the 2 people i know about it. and took their comments and passed them along. those people no longer have any affect on things with regards to wera vintage. but its my guess they were bright enough guys to have worded the rules exactly as they intended them. open enough for interpretation, but restrictive enough to make the competition good. and both of those people were there for the construction of my bike and had plenty of input. it would seem if that were the intention, and this is just me, it would have been worded that way. i suppose one could even argue from the other side that it was put that way to keep out trackmasters,drixtons, tabs, and seeleys etc...

and yeah, i know no one said my bike was intentionally built as a cheater. im not accusing anyone of anything there. hell, with chris m looking over my shoulder non-stop, i could have easily done something illegal with the motor and skipped anything on the frame. and no one would have known any different.


thoughts??

 

Is it just me or is CharlieY the only one who is making a fuss? Do you want to protest a finish or points standing? Or are you gunning for a national title in 2008 and need to thin out the competition?

 

I don't see Charlie complaining. He just doesn't want to see a good thing get out of hand. For many of us on a shoe string budget, less is definitely more.
I say if you want to move up to V1, just add the bracing while you have the engine out. No big deal. I agree that there should be visual cues to distinguish the two classes.