Another 350gp questions

Its beer time fella's...What time does this shindig start tonite? Russel and Jack called me to ask, the posting says no time....I said I think 6:30ish??

Anyone?

 

Hey Joe...I asked in a thread earlier this year about V1 frame bracing....and someone came up with it....actually, might have been yamfan...

 

yeah, wait til you see tex pass you on the inside, over the pot hole into t10 at summit. bike, pipes, and rider all going in different directions! youd want him to have his frame braced too!!

i think he makes a valid point. its just comming from a direction i wouldnt have expected.

i still beat him!

jc

 

10-4 Joe...looking forward to it.

Hey, I aint sayin I'm the fastest guy on the planet.....just standing my ground on something I believe is all....:up:

 

Frame modifications ARE specifically allowed with the exceptions of bikes restricted to OEM frames

"Frame: Swing-arm bracing or use of aftermarket performance swing-arms is allowed in all classes unless denied by special rules. These modifications must be made in a manner considered period for the class; i.e., all V 4 OHC 4 cylinder machines may employ bracing or swing-arms of the design that was in use prior to 1982."

You need to view this with the spirit of the rules in mind. The modification rule is NOT ABSOLUTE. It means that the frame cannot be modified to enhance its performance. Even in production and super stock racing applications there are some required components not found on the stock frame. These must be added, steering damper and optional items such as ignition coils, numberplate's etc. They all require mounts, it could be specified that all of these must be bolt on, but there is no logical reason to restrict this.

I am not sure what issue you have understanding the difference with changing a bearing and what an OEM frame is. Nowhere in the rules does it mandate that only OEM bearings must be used. How does limiting the range of the steering stop contribute additional structural rigidity to the frame?.

The addition of a few 3/4" x 12 gauge (.104) tabs of steel or a 3/4" wide strip of steel with holes is more than enough to hold the seat on. It will hold the seat down but it does not in anyway limit flex so it ONLY functions as a "bracket or mounting tab"

The addition of a 4" or 6" wide steel plate strategically positioned between the shock mounts to limit flex and improve the structural rigidity of the frame is BRACING THE FRAME. The fact that it has some holes in it that hold the seat down does not make it a "bracket or mounting tab". Rationalize it as much as you want but it is a FRAME REINFORCEMENT that also happens to hold the seat down.

There is no need to make a whole new class, V1 already exists.....

By the way you are looking at this I envision hearing you in Jon Lovitz's voice saying "Its a seeeaaatttt mount, yea that's what it is a ahhh seeeaaatttt mount, yea"

 

"yeeeeeahhhh....it is a seat mount"

Im not saying the steering stop affects structural rigidity. Im saying its a modification to the frame. Youre cutting off and changing the frame. You might was well add it ot the list of mods right? "if it doesnt say you can do it, you cant" right? Charlieys issue seems to be that it is just against the rules. Thats it. He wants to move the bikes for visual reasons. To deliniate them from gpbikes. Not the right way to do it as there are probably alot of v1 bikes that dont have bracing. Not to mention like i said, no where could i find in the rule book where it says you can in fact brace a v1 frame. nowhere. it would be better to allow bracing in gp and keep the few bikes there that have it. to analyze every bracket, tab and plate is drawing too fine a line. the rule should be inclusive as long as the motor meets the gp requirements for cb.


I have needle bearing swing arm bearings. Mongo has already said thats illegal. Now youre mentioning it says nothing about oem bearings. I agree! How many people do you know who have had oilite bushings put in, or had hoyt make bushings for them?? Or made them in their own shops?? Probably quite a few. I know i do. Now its being required that to replace them you go to honda, order them, wait a week or more, if they arent backordered, spend over 100 bucks, and use only those. Stupid when I did it for less, and learned something about building my bike. I took the cheapest way out I could figure. I can give the you the msc numbers and you can do the math on your own if its a cost issue. I bought all of the parts right from the msc catalog. Its not that though. This is about a rule. And its obvious there are too many things to keep control of. Bearings, and whether a seat bracket is a brace and this and that. When none of it matters yet. None of it needs to be made such a fuss of. It just doesnt. It stupid and nit-picking.

None of those things have proven to be advantageous. And the rules are there to either provide an advantage or to make the field even. I think the gp bikes have the advantage still. Nothing has proven the cbs are going to walk all over them regularly. That is why we dont need to change anything unless the dispute of a frame brace needs clarification. to move a stock motored bike to a built class is silly. I do not consider visual identification, or the intent of the then rules committee any reason to do it. None of those people have chimed in, and w/o having a majority of them there to do it, we wont know. Its just the way it is. If anything, make the braces legal. Most people arent going to bother doing it anyway as its really no required. I just see no reason not to have the rule read that way. I just see no reason to not have them braced. It just isnt there. Not yet anyway.

joe

 

ps, still, no one has answered my question about needle bearing shock mounts. unless thats considered not a period mod. which im pretty sure also isnt covered in the suspension category.

you know, i hate to have to do this. its all stupidity. mongo shold just ban all of us. for making his life just that much more of a pain in the ass. when there are guys complaining about traction control, and tire sizes and other"really important things" how such a small group of people can not manage to just back off and get along amazes me. 250 gp is gone. the same can happen to 350gp. then we'll all have to build v1 bikes. cant we just leave people to race, have fun, and enjoy the summers at the track??? jesus.

jc

 

You end with Jesus and your initials are JC? Am I missing something here? If it tunrns out that the swingarm bearings ARE legal, I would be up for a set. And yes they are period, my Seeley swingarm on my Norton has them! Iahve to admit, I never really felt anywhere close to out of control going through turn 10 or 3 at Summit even without bracing and loose rear wheel spokes (and two broken) :tut: I must remember to recheck spokes after after each race weekend!

 

I did not see that Sean said the swingarm bearings were illegal, I can't say that I agree with this assessment, but then again he gets to call the shots. It is hard in my mind to allow tapered steering head bearings and then disallow needle bearings in the swingarm pivot... they were available and used in period.

The Frame modification issue is not hard for me to understand. Joe, it does not require you analyze every tab or bracket. You have to plan the placement/location, the only constraint is that it NOT provide additional structural integrity to the frame. Modifications are allowed to frames not excluded by the OEM restriction so long as they conform as "period" modifications.

I am not arguing the cost of the modifications or any other specifics of the modifications.

Some sections of the rules are poorly written, after reading the frame section I have to agree it falls into this category. This is an issue that has been raised on multiple occasions, people that understand the classes and intent of the rules have offered to assist in re-writing and clarifying them for years. This is an issue that for what ever reason Sean believes should be handled internally by WERA, it is probably best if I leave this as enough said.

The issue here is understanding how to read and interpret the rules, what they do or don't mean. I guess what it boils down to is that if you have been around and have learned how to read them and interpret the intent they are clear, this is the case for Sean. If you are new and trying to read and understand them they can be ambiguous.

If the rules are re-written/updated they should be written so they clearly express all limits without the need of interpretation. I can understand Sean's interest in consolidating the vintage rules with the modern rules, but given some of the issues in Vintage classifications I question if this can be accomplished while eliminating the ongoing confusion.

My 2 C worth

 

Joe, Its a structural mod, which is why its illegal....being more visually apparent is just a bonus.

I know of NO, None, NADA, V1 bikes that are NOT braced.....and I know NONE, Nada, 350 GP bikes that ARE braced...you have summed that up well sir.

It is actually this simple.....in my simple mind anyhow....

Build an Non structurally braced bike and race GP....Bring a structurally modified / braced bike and race V1....it really is that simple.

Tex, you have requested a reply and I have done so....so here is one for you:

How does the FCB rules read to allow frame bracing?....I'm awaiting your reply sir.....

I think it was summed up best by Tim Joyce....who has been around longer than dirt I've heard....sorry Tim

and not to mention this one:

Boys, the safety concern is addressed by the rider, with the assistance of seam welding if deemed necessary by the rider....period.

Actually repeating myself, with alittle difference, is fun....and I could do it for days...oh, thats right, I already have ....but I can do it more if you want.

I'm sorry, I just really like this one:

Hey Yamfan, thanx for the relief....I have learned about what you are saying here:

The issue here is understanding how to read and interpret the rules, what they do or don't mean. I guess what it boils down to is that if you have been around and have learned how to read them and interpret the intent they are clear, this is the case for Sean.

No BS, once you guys got me straight there, it all made sense.

Bare in mind boys....I was once a "V1 Lite" fan as you are.....but I saw the light (Bud light)

 

charlieY- thanks for the mag. welding rod. If you keep going on and on on this thread though- I am gonna tape up the lights on my factory original cb350 and come out and kick your butt! And what comes next? I will explain how my bike still has points and you have a magneto... and that it cost money and is not anything close to OEM... and that it looks cool and not stock like a stock running bike. Wait you removed your stator- thats 2.3 lbs. and uh oh- the rotor on the crank is missing in place of a smaller lighter trigger for the Magneto. Hmm.... drgonzo is not gonna like this- it actually kinda looks like a racing bike. And damn that drain plug I gave you= shit that thing weighs nothing... knock knock- .... nobody home- hey thats not stock. Man- I hope you dont you get protested- I mean the rules never say you can- so I guess you can't. Anyway- I am just illustrating how absurd this thread is... enjoy.

 

While this may seem absurd to some, I think this thread is useful. There are really two issues here, one is the issue of how to read the rules and what they actually or maybe a better way to put it is what they definitively say. The other is, should stock Honda 350’s run in 350GP be allowed to run modified frames.

In the end if there is a still a question in your mind and you don’t think the rules specifically allow or disallow something Sean WILL clarify what the rules actually allow/disallow. Arguing about it will not get something allowed, he will TELL you what the rules say.

Here is the OEM definition statement from Chapter 9 as pointed out by Sean:

“OEM is defined as Original Equipment from the Manufacturer. “

Here is the detailed listing of specific modifications (from Chapter 9) of the rulebook for a Super Stock bike of which about 90% apply to a vintage bike carrying an OEM restriction. Obviously things like body work etc. do not apply so I did not list them.

In general the allowable modifications for an OEM restricted vintage bike are a bit more liberal with respect to bracket removal and the addition of tabs, it is tailored to things that make sense. An example of this applies specifically to the stock Honda in 350GP, it is allowed to run a fairing. The steering stops need to be modified to limit the swing of the forks, this would be an allowed modification, it has no principal impact on the frames performance. You are allowed to change things like the ignition (coils), seat, etc. Most of the bikes do not have provisions for mounting a steering damper, in some cases tabs for pegs/rear sets need to be added or modified. Again the only restriction is that any of these modifications cannot serve to enhance the performance of the basic frame.

a) Grab rails, horns, reflectors and outer rear fender, and helmet locks may be removed.
b) Turn signals, cruiser pegs, and luggage racks must be removed.
c) Passenger footpegs and brackets may be removed.
d) Rider footpegs and brackets may be changed or modified.
e) Handlebars may be changed or altered.
f) Instruments, instrument brackets, switches, and associated cables may be removed and/or replaced by aftermarket parts. Original combination instrument/fairing brackets may be replaced with aftermarket parts. This applies and is limited to the upper front fairing area.
g) Headlight and tail/brake light housings may be removed. Disconnection must be made at stock connectors. If requested the stock fixture/bulb must be operable, with no modifications, by simply plugging the fixture/bulb into the wiring harness or socket.


:up:

 

bob- of course I appreciate your astute contributions to this thread and I know there needs tio be clarification. I am just stirring up trouble before this thread goes away...

 

to interpret the current rules, a grammar lesson is necessary. the defense to allowing bracing is all in the punctuation. why, because the rules as written and published since the inception of CB350 Hondas into 350gp, never specified otherwise. o.k., here are the rules in bold. i will pull out the sentences and copy them in bold. my answers will be in normal text (like this).

Honda 350cc twins with the following limitations: OEM Honda twin frame and swingarm, OEM, stock, non-modified engine parts (no material removed or added), OEM carburetors (jets may be changed). The following modifications are allowed: aftermarket cam chain and cam chain tensioners, any ignition system and coils, any internal expanding drum brakes, any diameter period forks to class maximum diameter, any period exhaust system, any period body work/fairing.
Among the eligible 350 GP machines are the following: Aermacchi/H-D 350cc 4-stroke singles; AJS 7R 4-speed; BSA 350, BSA 441; Bultaco 125/200 TSS; Ducati 350; Honda 305 Superhawk, CR-77 and the restricted 350cc twins listed above; Norton 350; Royal Enfield 500cc singles any year; Suzuki X-6, T-250;Yamaha TD1, B, C, and DS7(up to 3mm over) without carb restrictions.

my response is below.

Honda 350cc twins with the following limitations: the beginning of the CB350 indexing rules starts with these seven words, followed by a colon. a colon is used before a list or an explanation that is preceded by a clause that can stand by itself. OEM Honda twin frame and swingarm after this is a comma, which used properly in the english language assumes a pause by the reader. OEM is followed by another comma (pause). stock[/B is followed by another comma (pause). non-modified engine parts (no material removed or added) followed by another comma, and another pause. finally, OEM carburetors (jets may be changed) followed by this little guy (.), which is a period (and is the end of thought).

the rules do not say anything against frame bracing. they DO say that you must have a oem honda frame. oem just means that it is not aftermarket. the lines "oem" and "stock" that follow "oem honda frame and swingarm" are most definitely written in there to precede the line of "non-modified engine parts (no material removed or added), " which in effect translates to a no-exception definition to modifying the engine.

this argument has been compared to the old debate of the formula-rd class, and i agree to an extent. the problem with rd's was that a few competitors were not following the rules on engine mods. the reason they killed the class was because the club already had formula 2 stroke and formula 500 and didn't see a need to maintain a spec yamaha rd class with those two other viable options. also i believe in certain regions, the entries of rd's to the class were severely lacking.

where we differ is that no one is arguing over engine mods, as i feel that no competitor has been brash enough to modify and cheat. frame bracing is not cheating. it was never prohibited in the rules and never should be.

now to answer certain people who have posted.

mongo, sure i'd shut off the throttle, and hit my brake markers going into t1 at summit. i love racing and all, but i am also into self-preservation. i try to race hard, but always within my limits. i don't need to crash myself or one of my friends out of a race.

bob, i'm a lot smarter than the credit you gave to me. i would never crash my bike to make a point. that is the definition of being stupid and an asshole. i am neither.

charliey, i don't think you disrespected me with the rope comment and thus wasn't needing an apology. i appreciate the fact that you were sensitive enough to acknowledge it, and gracious enough to offer it. again, i appreciate it/you.

to the rest of the people that have posted, the decision whether to remain status quo or change is up to sean and evelyn. i have been informed that it will happen on monday. whether it swings one way or the other does not change my racing plans for 2008 and shouldn't change yours either.

i'll get down from my soapbox now and will see ya'll trackside. 2008 is going to be epic.

cheers,

tex mawby, #61 wera, uscra, vrra, ahrma

 

Tex, I agree with your english session 100%. I dont see the bracing listed there either....but also where I dont see it is the "Modifications Allowed"....essentially, if it were allowed it should be there.

10-4 buff.....sorry you couldnt make it last nite.....and you probably would kick my butt...but......that drain plug sure did look alot like an OEM rocker access cover sir... ...and any ignition is listed under mods allowed, aint it?....but I see your point.

Have a good day gents.

Happy Bday Sean

 

Tex,

I did not impugn your intelligence, I only said that your statement sounded a bit like a threat...

Although poorly written, the rules clearly disallow bracing of the frame.

Read the rulebooks definition of OEM...

"OEM is defined as Original Equipment from the Manufacturer."
Sean is the ultimate arbiter of the meaning of this phrase and he has said it means no bracing, I believe it is the way it reads..


Tomorrow you will find out if Sean has decided to make frame bracing legal on the Honda 350 in 350GP.. for now it remains illegal.