1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Another 350gp questions

Discussion in 'WERA Vintage' started by beechkingd, Dec 4, 2007.

  1. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    You know, the more I read this the more annoying it is.

    The Vintage rules that are causing all the confusion were written by the Vintage riders. The rules we're discussing in this thread are being discussed by the riders and you have two totally different camps as to which is the correct way to go for the bike in this class.

    So please explain how going back to the method that got us to this point is going to make anything better? I'd also like to hear what about Vintage makes it so drastically different than the other race classes. I've been hanging around the track for a while now and it sure seems like you guys are all doing the same thing but hey, I've been wrong before.

    You obviously also didn't understand what OEM means, please see my previous post. The rulebook on this issue is clear, you are adding in things that are not in that wording - that means the definition YOU have is incorrect sorry. Read the rulebook, do not try to add or detract from the definitions in the rulebook and you'll be better off.

    These bikes are performance indexed into this class with a lot of limitations. That means you don't get to default back to the whole it's legal if it was in use during the period such as the bearings. They are not listed as a legal part of the machine for this specific performance index, therefore they are not legal. When you allow a bike into a class with limitations that means it has well....limitations on it. It doesn't mean you as the rider get to pick and choose which ones you like and which you don't. It means build the bike to the level as listed or pick another bike/class.

    And the fact that a lot of you who have been doing this for a very long time don't get that simple idea is in a nutshell is why you guys are not the people to write the final rules. I'm not saying I am necessarily the best person for the job, but this is proof positive writing them by committee sitting around the campfire didn't work.
     
  2. lizard84

    lizard84 My “fuck it” list is lengthy

    Ya old Grump!
    :D
    :beer:
     
  3. joec

    joec brace yourself

    buff gets my point. tex, i failed 7th grade english. oem means oem. agreed. i dont get why no needles in the sa, but its ok for tapered in the neck. bmws all have sa bearings. but its not an issue of period correct in this case i dont believe. when you say cheap entry level racing, that implies a cost. but thats not ht limiting factor to this class. my point is, i was able to actually make functional parts, for less then you can get them from the oem. and i see no reason why that should ne be allowed or promoted.

    always check your spokes.

    yes, the initials are ironic arent they?
    jc
     
  4. WERA33

    WERA33 Well-Known Member

    maybe we should rename 350gp......Vintage Clubman!!!!!!:)
     
  5. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    Sure sounds like it. :)
     
  6. CharlieY

    CharlieY Well-Known Member

    Now that is good!:up:

    I'm glad I dont write the rules....doesnt sound like a glory job.

    As just info for the person who does....back on page 9, I made an attempt at a proposal which re-wrote the index / special rule for the 350. The only thing I might add since then is any gas tank, any rearsets. I'd add them just cuz this is also there...Any modifications not specifically listed above shall not be permitted....as suggested by someone else.

    Its just my opnion, but it is there for the hacking, chopping or pasting as seen fit by the rule author....there is also a summary close to there that just lists possibly considered changes.

    using none of that, or the old rule, is allways an option too:D .....I'm just pointing to something that is there.....there is alot of info on this thread.
     
  7. Yamaha Fan

    Yamaha Fan Well-Known Member


    I am sorry that my post annoyed you, it was not my intent.

    We both agree that the issues with the current rules are because they were written by vintage riders, It probably would have been helpful if people with qualifications other than being a vintage rider had been enlisted. I know the old structure created many issues that still plague the vintage group.

    Please tell me where I suggested going back to the old way? If you read that in what I said you are doing the same with my statements that others have done with reading the rules. I did not suggest that the rule writing be turned back over to the same people that previously wrote the rules, I only suggested that people have volunteered to help and you feel it best if handled in house. I don’t think there is a single vintage racer that does not comprehend or appreciate how busy you are running WERA, I can only imagine the volume of E-mail and other issues you have to try and respond to. It is understandable with the growth of WERA that it is difficult to get a handle on this.

    Just because previous volunteers were not thorough enough, it does not mean others cannot improve on the structure of the rules. I have always been critical of how the vintage rules are written and structured. I am no grammar wizard so I am not maligning the punctuation. I don't care if you write the rules or who does, what has been missed is to proof read them with a critical view, I.E. "What are we trying to say" followed with "Is that what the rule says"

    You are absolutely correct that some of the things I added are NOT in the rules, this does not change the fact that they are things that have to be done to make the allowed modifications work safely. To keep coils, foot pegs, seats exhaust etc. from falling off during races, yet do so within the spirit of the rules. There is no technical inspection of this aspect of the bikes, it is left to the riders to sort this out and this leads to confusion and conflict.

    Beyond defining the classes the vintage rules should be different than the modern rules, they have to provide guidance in some respect to what modifications are allowed. In most cases vintage bike builders do not have the luxury of purchasing bolt on parts and kits for bodywork, foot controls and accessories. These all have to be safely mounted somehow and this requires modifications, modifications NOT defined by the rules.

    This is further complicated in the two instances where specific bikes are restricted to OEM frames. There needs to be some bridge between the rigid definition of OEM contained in the modern section and the realties of building a LEGAL “OEM” spec vintage bike, these are two very different things. No such information exists in the rules, what I posted is little more than an outline of how I judge if a modification falls within the spirit of the OEM rule, yet allows one to safely attach any period exhaust, bodywork/fairing or alternate forks etc. that are allowed by the rules. One can choose to ignore this but it does not change it as the reality of what it takes to build a vintage race bike. If the full definition of an OEM frame as defined in the modern section of the rules is applied to the Honda 350's in 350GP I doubt a single one is legal.

    My comment on the swingarm bearing was just that a comment, am I to understand that an OEM 350GP Honda cannot use a tapered steering head bearing retrofit either? I don’t know that there is a benefit to the needle bearing pivots over a properly setup bronze bushing set other than longevity.

    It seems that you and I agree on those trying to push the level of modification allowed so I don’t think your comments on this subject were directed at me.

    Cheers, and happy birthday...
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2008
  8. phantom 309

    phantom 309 Well-Known Member

    I have not been around for a few years but will be this year and far as I know the rules have not been changed much since the vrc.Looks like things have worked well over the years and can't agree with vintage growth but wera in general has grown.It just goes back to spec type classes are a pain in the butt.If they keep it up mongo will just tell them to run the other classes the 350 can run with modifications.I think if I was him I might just do that.Just my 2 cents.Tim
     
  9. racertex

    racertex vintage dude

    i don't care. after all of this menusha, i'm rooting for tuesday!

    i have a legal cb350 stocker.

    i also have a cb362 legal v1 bike.

    i guess i'll just judge by the people who show trackside for what bike to race and when.....call me discriminatory....again, i could care less!

    this thread has made me exhausted.

    tex

    p.s.- bob is never wrong.
     
  10. 83BSA

    83BSA Well-Known Member

    I think lawyers should write the rules . . . .
     
  11. Yamaha Fan

    Yamaha Fan Well-Known Member



    Bob is often wrong, admits it but camouflages it well... ;)

    Sean is never wrong..:D

    (Tex, how much less could you care?);)
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2008
  12. WERA33

    WERA33 Well-Known Member

     
  13. Tinfoil hat charly

    Tinfoil hat charly Well-Known Member

    Dave, you are just jealous there are no other BSA 500 guys to banter with...
     
  14. joec

    joec brace yourself

    mongo, you even admitted cutting things off the frame was alright. so which side of the oem line are you on??:Poke:

    sorry, couldnt resist.

    i sat with bucky sexton last night for about 3 hours talking nothing but about this. that conversation went places i never would have thought.

    yeah, it is annoying.

    i never meant it to be but now i feel like ive been forced into not only defending myself, but making points not addressed regarding things i beleive to be related. i dont consider myself to be the sharpest tool, but if i think of it. im sure other people would. clarification man! thats what we need! in clear print would be best.

    and since we are ont he subject, i never read thorugh the rules in places where it doesnt specifically address vintage, or general rules. i dont know if they oem clause is someplace where vintage guys would look.

    and no, we are no different than other classes. we just ride slower stuff. gratefully too!

    happy birthday!

    jc

    ps, i vote for leaving it alone, and open to "interpretation". even though it is maybe not meant to be. besides, mongo wasnt even on the vintage rules committee when this stuff was made up. hes just inherited the fall out.
     
  15. lizard84

    lizard84 My “fuck it” list is lengthy

    I vote for everyone running V1, The hell with 350GP!:beer:
     
  16. Robin172

    Robin172 Well-Known Member

    Which would very shortly mean the end of 500GP as well.
     
  17. lizard84

    lizard84 My “fuck it” list is lengthy

    I agree,:up: then we will slay them...
     
  18. lizard84

    lizard84 My “fuck it” list is lengthy

    sad but true...
     
  19. lizard84

    lizard84 My “fuck it” list is lengthy

     
  20. charles

    charles The Transporter

    And some of you think I'm overly verbose! There's a possibility that some of you missed your calling to the senate chambers during filibusters.

    You know I can't help myself, so I'm chiming in here...by sticking to the spirit and intent of the rules, despite the fact they were not written by a lawyer (law firm?)- which might have added considerably to the mass confusion- we insure fair competition.
    There's no way to have each bike so carefully inspected at each tech, so we must have some personal integrity or it's a free-for-all with no end to the complaints.

    If safety issues are involved, why not present them to WERA so any changes that might be made, could be made after due deliberation and consultation?

    Watch out or Buff will un-ass and law down the law on his piss-ant 350.:D

    Best to All,

    C.
     

Share This Page