Another 350gp questions

Yep, the 130 looked like brand new after Summit which tells me it never really warmed up. It's a shame we won't get to race with each other until September at SP though

 

tex, thank you and thank e.e. and give my best to k.c. (sorry, i'm from mo.)

i want to stuff you all (beer has prevailed)-
tt

 

funny and on that note i'm punchin' out goose.

texy

 

long live beer.

jc

 

i just got the checkered.....beer!

tex

 

toecutter--what tire pressure were you running in that big 130? [i've got one too...]

 

I am not trying to wade in on who is or is not running a legal frame or drive anyone out of running a "stock" CB350. This debate is moving in the direction of the old F-RD class, escalating the status of the bike can lead to it getting kicked out of the class or it elimination all together when it gets just to tedious to police (one of the issues with the old F-RD class).

I can remember the debate when the “stock” 350 was indexed into 350GP and the intent was for a STOCK based bike with minimal modifications. If you convince Sean that frame mods should be allowed, so be it. The RD400's addition to V2 is restricted to a Stock OEM frame with the use of the term “SS spec” this could be added to the 350gp listing but I believe the following would eliminate any questions for all current (and future) stock frame limited indexing.

Add the following to the Frame portion of the rules:


“Frame: Stock OEM disallows any modification intended to brace or stiffen the frame or swing-arm, unused OEM tabs/brackets may be removed, mounting brackets or tabs may be added for bodywork, pipe mounts or mechanical devices. Spot welded sections and joints may be re-welded, crack/break repairs may be reinforced. Swing-arm bracing or use of aftermarket performance swing-arms is allowed in all classes unless denied by special rules. These modifications must be made in a manner considered period for the class; i.e., all V 4 OHC 4 cylinder machines may employ bracing or swing-arms of the design that was in use prior to 1982. “

It covers it all, modification and repairs.


350 GP rules need only have the following update:

“Honda 350cc twins with the following limitations: STOCK OEM Honda twin frame and swingarm, OEM, stock, non-modified engine parts (no material removed or added), OEM carburetors (jets may be changed). The following modifications are allowed: aftermarket cam chain and cam chain tensioners, any ignition system and coils, any internal expanding drum brakes, any diameter period forks to class maximum diameter, any period exhaust system, any period body work/fairing. “

For Sean & WERA this change makes it clear for all currentdcases and easy to index any bike based on a stock frame limitation in the future.

As for Buff’s rim width question:
"Rim Width: GP, V 1 and V 2 may not exceed 2.75."

:up:

 

Yam Fan....excellent input sir, thanx. As I believe you are saying, I just think its trouble down the road with frame bracing allowed in this class....you guys know more about writing the rules than I do.

My requested reply to Tex sum's things up the best I can think of.

Talk to you tonite Sean, thanx.

We have excellent racing tex....and AHRMA GP has honda 350 indexed OUT...maybe you should read the rules.

Bracing is not for safety, welding seams is for safety....that has been addressed.

Reply:

1. Its against the current WERA rules for Honda 350 in 350GP.

2. It was never intended to be in the rules, thus it was not listed in the "Modifications Allowed" list.

3. We requested a ruling / clarification from a WERA official, and received one reinforcing the above.

Those are the big logs on the fire, but heres some kindling for good measure:

4. It provides a cleaner class break between GP and V1.

5. No one here, or anywhere, has said it makes NO PERFORMANCE DIFFERENCE. It allways "some", "alittle", "Not much"....which just means we all agree there is some advantage....which is why #1, #2, and #3 above apply. Welding seams is for safety.

6. Some of you have admitted to pushing the limits of the rules here.

7. It doesnt comply with your own FCB rules either...and didnt you help write them or something?

How much rope do you need Tex? Is this an acceptable reply?…with both technical and ethical merit?

 

guess we'll have to wait till monday to find out, won't we.

charliey wait till you start really pushing that frame/chassis for all it's worth.

yep, you eventually get used to the flex, shimmy, shake and roll......

but getting used to something that is inherently unsafe and dangerous and saying, ho-hum, we'll it's not in the rules, because they old rule makers never clarified is just plain freakin' STUPID!

as for this crusade of yours....i just hope no one gets hurt because of it.

if someone does betcha the SILENCE will be DEAFENING here on the old bbs.

have a GREAT weekend.

i'm off to work on my bike.

2008 is gonna be epic.

tex mawby, 61x wera, uscra, vrra, ahrma

 

yawn...


You guys need to do better in the entertainment department!

So either get to it, or just refresh an old 2 stroke's vs 4 stroke's thread or perhaps an old rule's thread from 2002, 3 or 4.


Carry on:tut:

 

Your statement sounds just a bit like a threat, “If you don’t let me brace my frame and swing-arm I am going to ride so hard that I will crash and it will be your fault”.

The chassis limitations are part of the PERFORMANCE indexing of the bike and are intentional. In any class including modern, if you push a given bike you will find its limit (or as in my case the riders limit ) be it the frame, suspension or brakes. Taking your argument to its logical conclusion all vintage bikes should be able to use perimeter frames, single shock suspension and modern brakes.

If I try and ride my twin shock RD fast enough to stay with an RZ I will be pushing it beyond its capability, this is MY mistake and it is not a proper argument to allow the modification of my frame/suspension to make it safe. Should I choose to do this I can, it just means my bike is no longer legal for F-500 and would be a F-2stroke bike. Managing the limitations of a given chassis, brake, tire combination is part of racing and is the RIDERS responsibility.

If you are pushing a stock 350 to the extent that you have a serious handling issue you should consider moving to V1 or another advanced class that is more suited to your riding abilities.

Please don't take this personal, just trying to express an opinion of this issue as it relates to our racing.

Bob

 

I think the issue is in how you are positioning the logic of your conclusions. "Exploiting within the rules" is a valid strategy, I.E. in a formula class you can make almost any modification withing the specifications of the class. This is NOT true when dealing with an indexed bike, you cannot expand its definition to include modifications applied to non-indexed bikes in the class. exploiting by "expanding beyond the rules" or by "creatively reading the rules" places you outside the rules.

 

Understood, I know it is difficult and expensive to manage and print, just thought it a reasonable solution to eliminate the confusion once and for all.

 

my unbraced rz frame will flex and protest at some tracks. turn 9 at savanna going full tilt comes to mind. i beat doug for the 250gp title in 05 on my taco and it wasent braced and you could maually manipulate the frame. like tex said you get use to it.....like a bitchy girlfriend.

 

the general frame rules do not address frame bracing as far as i can find. even in v1 there is no mention of bracing, so youd have to change the v1 rule too to allow it going by the "not specifically mentioned, not allowed" thought. the frame section only seems to address swingarms. and even then it only address the swing arm, not the bearing. and youd have to specify detabbing the swing arms is its dealt with seperately but exactly in the same wording as the frame. also, one of the many things i have thought of, steering stops. if youre going to be specific, youd have to address modifying the steering stops on the frame also. and would adding a plate across the frame between shock bolts be considered bracing if its original function was to be to bolt the seat down? or is that not going to be allowed?

screw it, since were at it, why dont we just make a whole new class.

jc

 

Tex sir.....I've seen the limits, and have a dent in my tank to prove it. I've felt the wiggling beast (that sounds funny).....that just tells me that is how fast our class was meant to go....and if I wanna go faster, go V1 racin.

Its been this way since the index rule was written.....when?....how many years?....at least thats for everyone else except you, I forgot.

Hey Joe, I respect your approach....well done sir....I'd love to have a bar between my shocks (dam, that almost sounds like the wiggling beast!), thats the first one I'd install actually.....you are attempting to be constructive with the situation at hand, I respect that immensly sir.......but tex's approach is a last gasp.

Tex, You kill me man, so if you get hurt its my fault?....bit of a stretch there.

Stand up for your actions and take it like a man.....you knew you were rolling the dice. Just no one will call you on it....well, here I am sir.

Oh, and I apologize for that rope comment tex, disrespetful....seriously. I'm trying to stay above the BS.