Who decided the war was over?

You make me laugh

 

wow, since 12-plus soldiers died yesterday you think tht's funny too?

 

You continuously try and put words in my mouth, try speaking for yourself once in a while.

 

The only area of trouble is the Sunni Triangle, the area where Saddam came from and also an area that shared his particular flavor of Islam. The Shite muslims have been abused by his regime and aren't doing the bombings. They, by and large, are glad to be rid of the dictator who raped their women and tortured their children. The folks in the Sunni Triangle seem to be the ones who want to return the slimeball to power, mainly because they were part of the ruling elite under his regime.

What you're seeing now is the last gasps of his regime. They're getting more and more desperate in their efforts to stop this new Iraqi government from taking power. It's important that we don't blink now. Bailing now, would mean that all the deaths to date were for nothing and would surely plunge the region back into another dictatorship/radical Islamic government.

As for MarkB's point about global communication, the one thing to remember is that only WE have that. The average Iraqi only knows what the state tells him. These people have been fed, since birth, that the USA is the Great Satan and that everything wrong in thier life is because of the USA. They live in misery and have been spoon-fed that we caused it. So we're swimming upstream against a current of brainwashing in the average populace. Which is why this is so important; if we succeed in our objective of creating a free Arab state, the benefits of freedom will be spread by word of mouth. That makes the job of the other teapot dictators in the region that much more difficult.

And again, no one said "the war is over." He said it was an end to major combat operations, which is exactly what happened. The 1st Infantry Division is no longer moving on Baghdad and in the process of conquering Iraq. That's done, now we're involved in the clean-up/rebuilding process. Along with "pacification" of the few remaining hostile elements. Pacification being a nice word for exterminating the vermin.

 

Lord I really hope you're right, cuz from what I'm seeing on the news the resistance is growing, gaining new members and momentum. The fighting has spread out to 8 cities, and troops of one of our allies (can't recall which) retreated and pulled out of a battle for one of the towns.

I have this gawd-awful fear that it's going to get much bloodier. I was dead set against this invasion but at this point I don't care who's right or wrong: my concern is that it end with no more soldiers or innocents killed. The insurgents are fueled by faith, culture, love of country and hate for us... they ain't goin' down easy. If the situation were reversed we'd fight just as hard.

 

It seems that a lot of good things happening in Iraq is being ignored. What of the thousands who died of starvation monthly even though the "Oil for food" program was in place? What of the restoration of power and utilities? What of the people trying to do all this getting killed and their bodies drug through the streets?

I think the question is not when will it be over, but when people with courage, knowledge, and zeal will be put in the correct positions so that Iraq will FINALLY be recognized as a good global citizen, and not a crazed nation needing constant supervision.

What is amazing is that people so interested in health and humanity can't see that this is a good thing. Of course your president wishes he could have filled out a requisition form and created a new Iraq without casualties, but he couldn't. He knew his own people would die, but couldn't stick his head in the sand.

Ignoring reality doesn't make the situation any less real.

 

Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but more folks are going to die, no two ways about it. Tucking tail and running now would only mean that those who've died so far did so for nothing.

El Amin, you summed it up quite nicely.

I think the "increased resistance" is nothing more than the recognition that it's getting dire for them. They are certainly no closer to victory because the ONLY way they can achieve victory is if we hand it to them. Which would mean us pulling out. So, every time you see some wanker on TV decrying the latest death and calling for our troops out of Iraq, know that in no uncertain terms that individual is giving aid and comfort to the enemy. Those mush heads send the message that the other side has a chance and that gives them the resolve to fight. That's not a feature by any stretch.

The message we need to be sending is that no amount of US casualties will deter our resolve. That we fully intend to see this through, whatever the cost, and that resistance is futile. Further, we need to root out those advocating it and exterminate them. That means the one Mullah in Iraq who's been advocating suicide bombings needs to be martyred. From what I've heard, they have every intention of doing just that.

The key is that we've got to show the rank and file Iraqi that freedom brings with it the opportunity for riches and a better quality of life than anything they've known before. If we can do that, then we'll have the bulk of the population on our side. More importantly, we'll have them willing to help root out the radicals amongst the population and make life better for everyone (except the radicals, of course).

 

which means you were not killed in Iraq.

 

Papa, are you insinuating that wars should not be fought because people die?

 

I believe he and his followers are Shi'ite Muslims, which puts a dent in the argument that only Saddam's people are fighting the American presence in Iraq.

I agree with you. I just don't see how this is going to be accomplished by June 30.

 

Not at all. But I think if you're going to die, it's probably better to die for a good reason. However, that was not at all what I was trying to discuss. I have no intention to visit that one right now.

What I am curious about is how we define war or major combat. As I am typing this, I am watching a mosque being hit by a helicopter-fired missile followed by a bomb dropped by a jet. At the same time, troops are fighting on the ground. Casualties are climbing faster than they seemed to do during official major combat. That's really what I was asking about: what is the current situation called? "Pacification" is bullshit. There seems to be a reluctance to use the word was "occupation." The "war/major combat" is over. And it sure ain't paintball.

 

I think the only thing America and it's officials may have underestimated was the Iraqi people's colossal ignorance and indoctrination. But, I'm certain they expected resistance.

 

Sadr is just another power hungry meglomaniac. Religion is just his vehicle to power.

June 30th..... Let it be known that we are going to detonate some neutron devices in Fallujah, Ramadi, etc. Anyone that wants to leave will be carefully searched on the way out. Anyone left is a combatant. May 31, BANG ..... Within a relatively short period of time the area will be inhabital again { except for the odor of martyrs }. You end up with a lot of people disarmed and a lot of trouble makers dead. Lessons for the rest of the country.

 

I'm certain you are joking.

 

Power coverage is reported (I obviously don't know that for a fact, but I accept it until I see a better source) to be about 25% in Bagdad, the rest of the city relying on generators when available. What was the percentage before the war? Honest question, as I have no idea. But if I have to guess, I would think it was better before. But again, that's not really something I am interested in arguing about right now (although I would be interested in the prewar percentage if you know it)

 

Of course i don't know that. but, there are many reports of international volunteers there to do just that. There are also many stories of them being violently attacked, or intimidated away from the task.

 

Don't know what the percentage of power pre war versus post war.

But I know poison gas attacks on kurds, state sponsored torture and genocide commited on the civilian population is down 100%.

 

Well said Preppy.

 

Just plain Dave.

Sorry to have just parachuted into your debate with Papa and selectively post, but Papa's post I replied to caught my eye.

I'll try and read this thread after work and hopefully contribute something worthwhile.

I swore off the politics and religion section but this thread seems interesting.

 

Yeah, Shorty, I suggest you read more of the thread for background. No one here said Saddam was a good guy. Well, not THAT Saddam.