Who decided the war was over?

Not to change the direction, but my point of view on all of this is tempered by the fact that our invasion was based on lies and misrepresentions.

I just can't get excited about "winning." I doubt we'd even be in a fight if things had been put to us straight, and all this hind-sight, woulda-coulda-shoulda-oughta crap would be null.


I'm angry, really, really f**kin' angry about being deceived... and it tempers my view of anything coming out of Washington or the American press. The reports of casualties in foreign press give higher numbers, and we're not getting anything on casualties and deaths of Iraqi (sp?) citizens OR on the number of US civilian employees that are hurt or killed.

Oaky.... rant's over... you may continue... I'll go back to reading

 

I don't doubt it. But your bother post seemed to imply the power/utility situation is better. At least that's the way I understood it.

 

That's what I had in mind in my response to El Amin about dying for a good reason. But I did not want to open a can of worms. Been there, done that.

 

If you are talking about the much heated WMD issue..... then what is the problem? Saddam and his government said he had them, and threatened to use them. Then, Iraq turned away the U.N. during the inspections that he agreed to allow. Iraq never produced the documentation or evidence to support their "we destroyed them" claim. Even the people here in Iran know this.

If you rob a bank in America with a note that says you have a gun, is it not "Armed Robbery?"

If i threaten to kill you is it not a threat until I do?

 

it's a LOT more than just one issue, and that topic has been beaten to death and is stinking... I don't even have the energy or desire to go thru it again, even more don't want to threadjack Papa's discussion... so back to the lead from "frogland"

 

Papa's question was answered here. The thread twists and turns from there. I don't think America's current government went to "kick ass" and come home. I've seen Bush's criticism of "there was no plan". I've been looking, and can't find a manual for toppling evil dictators and correcting stupid populations anywhere. But obviously there are a lot of people who can do it better.

Or would never even bother because it is "too messy".

 

My criticism of the occupation is not that it has been too heavy handed or messy.

It hasn't been heavy handed enough. The foreign fighters and religious zealots taking pot shots at the foreign troops do not understand the concept of the "carrot". They do understand the "stick" though. Smash them and their kind with very large sticks.
Bombing of their refuses, be they on Iraqi soil or Iranian, Saudi, Syrian or even Israeli soil. Killing of their recruits. Assisnation of their leaders. bombing of their sources of income. They want to be martyrs, than let them.

 

Dave, I live here in Iran. I went to college in America, and there is a huge devide in rational thought process between nations. What separates americans, and unifies middle easterners are at opposite ends. Some americans want to love each other, while over here they do not. Only fear and pain is understood. There is less of a humanitarian effect and outpouring of sympathy. Free thought is not encouraged, and on the surface.... is why America appears to be weak. America's protest of the current military situation is all that is shown here, not the fact that you can disagree and not fear for your life.

 

Iran is an interesting "topic" to me. A country of very wide and varying opinions where, until about a year ago all you heard about it in the US press was the Zealot facade. Recently, with the elections of a couple of years ago we started to see the move to a more moderate stance. With that, you have seen "cracks" in the coverage of Iran. With the most recent elections I'm sure that will change with a slide back towards portrayal of a modern Iran of 1979.

You said how the occupation is covered in the press in your country, but what is the “buzz” on the street with average Joe Iranian? I’m not talking the Zealot, but from the everyday Iranian?

 

Well, you know that Iran has a lot of love for Iraq.


Among the less thoughtful, they do not like the present occupation, but like the comfort that Saddams exit brings. Most cannot comprehend what true freedom is.

 

As for the whole WMD issue, what we've come to learn is that NO ONE, Saddam included, had ANY real idea on what the Iraqis really had. We've come to find out that Saddam's own people were lying to him on the subject. But all that aside, Saddam claimed he had them and also threatened to use them. More importantly, all he had to do was show the evidence of their destruction to the inspectors and he was clear. It was the French and Germans (you know, the countries with sweetheart oil deals with Saddam) who got that twisted around to making the inspectors go find them.

But beyond that, I have no doubts that Iraq was more than willing to conspire with Al Queda and also that there's some evidence of that already. So what if they didn't directly play a role in 9/11? It's not like that was their one and only planned operation. Iraq was also in a position where kicking their ass could be justified.

So, we kick Saddam's ass and cut off a major source of aid for Al Queda. We also topple a brutal dictatorship and make it clear to the rest of the kids in the sandbox that we're not playing any longer. Notice how Iran, Syria, Lybia, and the rest have all started to play nice lately? Coincidence? Don't think so. Lybia has been silent for over a decade and then they suddenly come out and claim to have no WMD's. That's not random chance, that's their way of saying "Mr. Bush, please don't kick my ass."

If it pans out and we can set up the first democratic Arab nation, that could forever alter the political calculus of the Middle East. No longer would the average Arab be content to live in squalor, under the thumb of a tyrant. Or more importantly, the average Arab would know that it doesn't have to be this way.

Papa, I'll be honest in saying that I don't know Saddam's particular flavor of Islam, be it Shi'ite, Sunni, or Baskin Robbins. My point was that the areas of uprising are the area where he is from and are mostly supporters of his regime. That bit is pretty well documented.

As for the attack choppers, that too is to be expected. We said that the ass-beatings would commence shortly and we weren't kidding. The folks responsible for killing those four US civilians, who were delivering food no less, are going to be converted to room temperature and soon. That seems to be as much a part of the Arab mindset as anything. Strength is respected; weakness is not. The Christian "turn the other cheek" motto is viewed as weakness to them. That's exactly why Bin Laden called the US a "paper tiger" before 9/11. He'd hit us a half-dozen times and we never hit back. Or if we tried to hit back, one counterpunch and we tucked tail and ran (Somalia, etc.). That's why he figured there would be no repercussions from 9/11. He was wrong, very wrong. Now the important thing is to finish it.

Also, as for the power thing, don't forget that much of those problems were brought on by sabotage. We didn't destroy those systems, they did and continue to do so.

 

Monday morning quarterbacks are ALL genius's, guess this makes you brilliant. You are WELL manipulated by the media, be proud…..

 

Hey! El Amin, ever answer your PMs?

 

Yes, but i was afraid that our language barriers would have cause an unneccesary rift between us. I went on to say that i respect your humanitarian ways, but are unrealistic.

Iranians don't like lawyers either, but like motorcycle racers.

 

Iranians don't like a lot of people do they?

 

let me pose this as a question, so I don't put words in your mouth: Can I deduce that because my point of view differs from yours, you assume I'm "manipulated?"
If so, isn't that just a tad arrogant to to believe that yours is the only qualified viewpoint?

 

EL Amin,
Have you ever read "The Haj" by Leon Uris. I had a person recommend it as a good insight into the Arab mindset. If you have read it how about a asessment of it's accuracy?

Thanks !!!

PS , The neutron bomb post was just semi-jest. I only found out last week that we had actually developed them. Do a search on the www for some info.

 

Dude, they (well, us really) deployed 'em.

 

Similiar to be manipulated by the Republican Party's Election Ads, I suppose....

 

El Amin, I take it from your posts (and forgive me if you've posted it before) that you are an Iranian that was born there and lives in Iran now but were educated in America? Just trying to gauge your perception.. I'm finding it interesting thus far...

I've known a couple Iranians in my life, and they were nothing like the zealots the media likes to throw up on the boob-tube. Delightful folks, actually. One was the son of a General of the Shahs (sp). No need to say what happened to his dad. He used to own a company that was bought by the company I work for. Bright fella... Another was a lady my wife used to work for. She mentioned once that her family was (or used to be?) affluent in Iran. She told most people that she was from Persia so that the red-necks would leave her alone. Bad stuff happened to her family too...