What is EBR's biggest reason for not gaining traction in US market?

im with u. he did a lot, esp with the environment he was faced with. but the validity of "great" is defined by the impact and results of what he did, IMO. in the long run EBR had little impact on the sport and the results just werent there. i would not call him a "great engineering mind".

 

Britten won a lot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britten_V1000#Racing_Achievements
Czysz won the electric IOMTT 2010 to 2013

edit : Jedb and the other guys beat me to it.

 

I'm well aware of John Britten and his 12 gorgeous motorcycles. The rest of your post uses a lot of words like "if" and "would". I'm more concerned with what actually happened.

 

Exactly. Amazing results for sure, but nothing compared to what Buell did. Eslick won more races on a Buell in one season than a Britten did ever.

The electric stuff is impressive, but not relevant to this conversation.

 

What happened was that John Britten died prematurely.

What does that have to do with pointing out the thing(s) Erik Buell did that make people refer to him as a "great engineering mind"?

So out of curiosity what actually happened, in your internet expert opinion, that made Erik Buell a great engineering mind?

 

To dream up things completely different and unconventional from scratch, then build it, and have it capable of landing on the podium at the Pro level and qualifying for WSBK races, is great IMO.

But the definition of "great" varies depending on the individual and context.

I'm not saying it was a "good idea" from a business and profit standpoint. I've already said that his necessity to think "outside the box" and try to prove that HIS designs could win, rather than sticking with what has been proven for decades, is what ultimately did him in (IMO). But that doesn't change how impressive his ideas were.

 

Buell's problems remind me of what Mark Twain said about his writing.

“High & fine literature is wine, & mine is only water; but everybody likes water.”
—Mark Twain, 1887

Your product can be different or it can be popular. Pick one.

 

The discussion hasn't changed from "engineering genius" to number of race wins.

The MotoCsyz bikes and the engineering vision behind them are totally relevant to this discussion.

 

Tragically, yes. It's too bad we never learned what Brittens real potential was. Not discounting Britten. He was a genius, but that has nothing to do with Buell.

I already told you my opinion. I believe that designing a sportbike from the ground up with proprietary designs that won races and championships and sold well over 100,000 units qualifies him as great.

 

It's baseball and football. Racing electric bikes at the TT is its own thing, and not even the same sport that Buell was playing.

I've seen Csysz' TT zero bikes up close and they're amazing. He's brilliant also, but it's completely different.

 

Absolutely.

Well said.

 

In a racing context the Petronas FP1 and Proton V5 did the same and they were "outside the box", but no one refers to their engineering as genius.

In your opinion, which of the EBR ideas were genius? Forget about business decisions and proving to the world which mousetrap is better for a minute, just give your opinion. I'm curious why I always see EB referred to as an engineering genius, but never understood why. Again, for the dimmer internet experts amongst us, this is not hate or a criticism about his passion.

 

You can't compare what Buell did against 600cc machines and what Britten did when he won Daytona BOT. The AMA back then was a world class competition and everybody showed up. Not dissing on the 'slick, just putting things into perspective.
And both Britten and Czysz died before they reached full potential.

 

Britten also used a complete from scratch design that he hand built, with no corporate backing. He didn't just do a really good tune on an existing motor then wrap a frame around, he clean sheet designed, cast, fabricated and built his own motor, frame, forks etc.

 

Everyone? Who showed up specifically? It was '94, so you're saying he raced Corser? CE II? Russell? Lawson? Polen? Or was it a club race?

Look, all I'm saying is that we get really romantic about Britten's story, and people come unglued if you put Buell in his category, but he accomplished plenty in racing, and in engineering.

 

Eh, nevermind.

Yall are right. EB's intelligence is average at best. Anyone can dream up a completely different motorcycle setup from scratch and have it be competitive at the National and even World level.

I look forward to seeing some of y'all's designs on the grids soon.

 

How about this: Exactly 12 manufacturers have put a motorcycle on a WSBK grid, including the big four. EBR is one of them.

That's rarefied air if you ask me. If any of you join that group with a motorcycle you design and build, I'll call you an engineering genius as well.

 

Dont tell Harley Davidson that...

 

The difference is that Harley makes bikes directly designed and marketed for, and that are perfectly good for (even great for), a specific purpose and demographic. In other words, Harleys are great at what they do.

EB, not so much. He tried to go after a market and demographic that is dominated by the Japs and Italians, and he did so by making something completely different, that wasn't better, but yet wanted to charge the same or more for it.

People simply won't spend the same or more to get less, regardless of how patriotic they are.

Not only that, but Harley has great marketing that has been successful at making Harley a brand, that is even bigger than the actual motorcycles.

 

I would argue that Buell's bikes were also directly designed and marketed for, and that are perfectly good for (even great for), a specific purpose and demographic. The bikes work just fine as street machines, as intended (most of them anyway). You guys are a bit harsh with the EBR hate. Any idea how hard it is to bring a product like this to market starting with a piece of paper? He did that, and it worked for a minute. He did that without the cubic dollars of the Big Japanese companies or their ~60+ years of previous experience. I feel if EBR had been around when things were really booming in the MC world, this might be a different story.