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What is EBR's biggest reason for not gaining traction in US market?

Discussion in 'General' started by RyanDCramer, May 25, 2017.

  1. G 97

    G 97 Garth

    I think Victory being shuttered has to do more with Polaris Industries long term approach in the large cruiser segment than anything else. With their acquisition of the Indian brand they decidede to pursue the market with this brand and not the Victory brand. They are limited in resources to be highly successful with both. In addition, some models would be cannibalized in the market from basically competing against themselves.

    So although the Victory brand was very successfull they see Indian as the brand that will ultimately give them the most ROI and long term success. I also think they realize that the Indian brand is the brand that will allow them to go toe to toe with Harley. If the current flat track results are any indication, they made the correct decision. Time will tell.
     
    JBraun likes this.
  2. NemesisR6

    NemesisR6 Gristle McThornbody

    I'm going out on a limb here (and it may be an unpopular one), but IMHO when I think American I don't immediately think "performance."

    Historically, we have sucked when it comes to building motorized vehicles that are anything other than big, shouty cars/bikes. That has certainly improved some with cars in the last couple decades, but I think the looming shadow of Harley Davidson (which categorically remains in the stone-age of motorcycle technology) has eclipsed a lot of the efforts to build a reputable, modern, and advanced sports motorcycle...........at least in the eyes of the consumer.
     
    RyanDCramer likes this.
  3. G 97

    G 97 Garth

    Off the top of my head. E'Slick podiumed at Sears Point in AMA Superbike on a 1190.
     
  4. Deckwan

    Deckwan Member

    This is a huge part of it. My friend runs a Honda dealer in midwest, he will not order a CBR for the floor anymore unless a customer wants one. It is not just that sportbikes are not moving off florrs, everything is slow in the moto world...look at used Harleys right now...it is a bloodbath, thousands of perfect low mile bikes just sitting while HD pumps about 250k more every year, and it is basically the same shit over and over.

    Fewer kids are growing up riding and thats means more bikes than riders....its a big problem that I do not see getting any better very soon. Japan also has this problem...seems less so in Europe.
     
  5. Bloodhound

    Bloodhound Well-Known Member

    Between the original Hardly Driven power plants used, the dealer network having them in the back corner of the showroom as an afterthought and building some of the most "love or hate" looks on the market would be my guesses why they never sold really well.
     
  6. The really sad part is that aside from Kawi, Triumph, and MV, over the timeframe that 600cc prices almost doubled, OEMs gave us the same shit year after year.
     
    Steeltoe likes this.
  7. Jedb

    Jedb Professional Novice :-)

    If you want racing feedback from some of the earlier iterations of EBR (2009) when they went racing in AMA, you should go speak with Alan Schmidt and Josh Bryan. They will give you some good information related to the bike handling and brake (single front). If I recall, Alan had several DNF or DFL as a result of the front brake warping or pad not holding up over the whole race. When that happens in racing environment, even if it is by a top guy, and the common racer or rider wouldn't encounter it,as JBraun said.

    Thus, the information gets out and it transforms from
    Top Guy had Brake issues attempting to be at pointy end ---to----> Brakes suck *AND* the single disc looks funky -----which means-----> It's Craptastic

    Regardless if this 'chain' is factual as the information gets out, that end perception, "Craptastic" is what information gets into the racing scene (AMA talking to Local) and then into the Track Day Scene (Local Racers working track days talking to Track Day riders) which will make it to distortion at Sportbike Nights... (AMA Guys said it's craptastic so MY GSXRRSVRRRM1 is clearly this shizzle..)

    If you want feedback on how the EBR Brake (most recent version) performed in road racing (IoM and Macau) talk to GP-Star on here. Brandon rode both IoM and Macau on it. (2014/15). In my conversation with him about the brake he indicated it was an insignificant issue. I'm sure he'll correct me if I mis-remembered it.

    As a result of Erik's unwillingness/inability to convert to a dual disc setup, the Perception/Reputation from 2009, earned or not, is what's stuck with the bike. It stuck because of the simple reason that the brake was a *VERY* visible carryover between editions.
     
    sdiver, JBraun and 5axis like this.
  8. racesbikes

    racesbikes WTB a Size 50/60 Race Suit

    I know we have discussed this before, but what examples are there of Buell being a "great engineering mind"?

    If you said John Britten or Michael Cyz, I'd agree with that, but what did Erik Buell really do that was considered "great" from an engineering design standpoint?

    I'm just not seeing it?
     
  9. JBraun

    JBraun Well-Known Member

    That's the best thing to come of the Indian revival. An arms race in flat track in 2017 is so cool I can hardly stand it.
     
  10. JBraun

    JBraun Well-Known Member

    Erik Buell is by far the most successful of those three by any measure. Britten and Czysz both put together some incredible machinery, and I won't take anything from either of them, but they only produced a total of 12 motorcycles between them, and never won anything that I know of.

    Buell's motorcycles have won a pile of races and a professional title, produced and sold tens of thousands of bikes, and raced in WSBK. No, they're not Honda, but they accomplished a lot.

    I'm not even a Buell fan. Never owned one, or an EBR for that matter. I just don't understand the hate for a guy who's passion for sportbikes and racing burns that brightly. His story didn't have a happy ending, but he accomplished enough to not be shit on by a bunch of internet experts every time his name comes up.
     
    turbulence and grasshopper like this.
  11. L8 Braker

    L8 Braker 'Murica

    At Bike Week, back in March, I went to the Honda tent and asked about how competitive the new CBR would be against the R1, ZX10 and BMW. He basically said that sportbikes are a headache for Honda and that while the CBR will be great, don't expect it to match up well against the competition. IOW, sportbikes aren't their focus.

    THIS article and THIS article go into some decent detail about bike sales statistics and other related things.
     
  12. Step back from the computer, turn the lights off, and close your eyes.......now think up a frame, suspension, brake design, and fuel storage scenario that nobody else is using.

    Now, go build it....and make it capable of being competitive at the Pro level, and qualify for WSBK races.

    I know I couldn't do it. I don't know of many that could.

    I do agree that Britten and Cysz were on another level, but EB is on a different level than us for sure.
     
    JBraun likes this.
  13. That is why I put the "American" adjective in front of "Sportbike", rather than in front of "Ohlins". :D
     
    turbulence likes this.
  14. racesbikes

    racesbikes WTB a Size 50/60 Race Suit

    Since you're not at all aware of the successes of the Britten V1000 I will just assume you're exactly the "internet expert" you're referring to. I am also positive the number of bikes produced was not the main point of the question....but I'd hazard a guess if the Britten went into full-scale production with the same financial backing Buell had, they would have been decidedly more successful.

    I didn't say anything about hate, or passion, the question was to have someone point out something Buell did that would warrant people saying he had a great engineering mind.
     
  15. L8 Braker

    L8 Braker 'Murica

    I don't ever remember anyone saying they hate the guy, or even dislike him. If anything, they're thankful he tried. However, what I have seen on countless message boards is the frustration of him building a bike that was way too overpriced and way too underwhelming to ever have a chance against the Big 4.

    IMWO, he thought too far outside the box. He needed to build a bike for the average Joe. A bike just like the others, but with a small touch of EBR flare. Lower price, dual rotors, common parts that are easy to obtain, just to name a few. Unfortunately, he ended up building something for anyone but that target audience, sales never got up to speed, and the bike was crucified in the public forum :(
     
  16. racesbikes

    racesbikes WTB a Size 50/60 Race Suit

    So in this hypothetical scenario....do I have 20 seconds and zero dollars to come up with my "design and build" or 20 years and a whole lot of other people's money?
     
  17. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter.

    Even if somebody gave me 20 years and 20 billion dollars, I couldn't sit here and dream up a frame/braking system/etc that nobody else has ever used, and then build it from scratch factoring in all of the stresses and forces it will see racing at the Pro level.

    And not only have it handle the stresses, but even be competitive.

    I'm not saying he is a Cysz, and we all know his business decisions have been questionable at best, but to discredit his intelligence is silly and somewhat disrespectful, especially because of the passion and support he has shown for our sport over the years.
     
    turbulence likes this.
  18. Sweatypants

    Sweatypants I am so smart! S-M-R-T... I mean S-M-A-R-T!

    MotoCzysz

    2010, it took first place in the 2010 TT Zero event at the Isle of Man TT, and set a new course record.
    2011 TT Zero Race, MotoCzysz riders Michael Rutter and Mark Miller took first and second places.
    2012 the same riders finished first and third.
    2013 TT Zero Race, Rutter again won at a new record race-average speed of 109.675 mph.

    Britten

    1991
    • 2nd and 3rd Battle of the Twins, Daytona, USA
    1992
    1993
    • Fastest Top Speed at the Isle of Man TT
    • 1st (BEARS) 2nd (Formula 1) Australian TT Bathurst
    • 3rd Battle of the Twins, Assen, Holland
    • NZ Grand Prix title
    1994
    • 1st Battle of the Twins, Daytona, USA
    • 1st and 2nd New Zealand National Superbike Championship
     
  19. racesbikes

    racesbikes WTB a Size 50/60 Race Suit

    I didn't discredit his intelligence or question his passion.

    There are many brilliant people who can't "design" to save their lives...just as there are many people of average intelligence who can re-design darn near anything on the back of a napkin. My question was what did he do, design, or invent that would make people say he has a great engineering mind? It is a question of curiosity - it is not a judgment or attack on his character
     
  20. Jedb

    Jedb Professional Novice :-)

    Czysz's Electric bikes won the TT-Zero several times
    In my opinion, he should have licensed his forks and the countershaft motor concept.

    The Britten did pretty well in several arenas.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britten_V1000#Racing_Achievements
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2017
    cha0s#242 likes this.

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