Universal Basic Income

Discussion in 'The Dungeon' started by ryoung57, Feb 13, 2019.

  1. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds


    For the third time: I'm not arguing for UBI, just discussing it. Although I'm not sure some of the people involved in the discussion have actually researched exactly what it is before making their judgement.
     
  2. Spang308

    Spang308 Well-Known Member

    I would have guessed younger.
    Government should build and maintain infrastructure and protect the borders. That's about it.
     
  3. sheepofblue

    sheepofblue Well-Known Member

    If you can get the welfare without working an hour then why work? If everyone including those earning a decent living get it then it will just cause inflation when the print money.
     
    badmoon692008 likes this.
  4. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds

    That’s the layman’s understanding, but the idea still seems to have legs. I’m not sure why. There’s got to be something we’re missing.
     
    badmoon692008 likes this.
  5. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds

  6. Motofun352

    Motofun352 Well-Known Member

    You're missing the greed,envy or sloth emotions. The desire to have what others have without having to work for it. There's a reason they are considered deadly sins...
     
  7. sheepofblue

    sheepofblue Well-Known Member

    And yet the recent test in Finland failed, welfare.
     
  8. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds


    The link I posted above about UBI and inflation, and the application of the Finnish project are not the same thing. Finland gave 2000 unemployed people about $675/mo for two years. That's really not a broad enough scope to determine how it would affect society. All it really seems to have been was an extension of unemployment benefits. I don't see how anyone who reads beyond the headline would perceive it as a failure. It was an experiment, not an application. Now if Finland gave every citizen that much money, inflation skyrocketed, and GDP plummeted, I'd certainly label it a failure, but that's not the case.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/02/opinion/universal-basic-income-finland.html
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
  9. sheepofblue

    sheepofblue Well-Known Member

    I get it you have to go full socialist to verify whether it works....
     
    badmoon692008 likes this.
  10. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds


    You've got to pass it to see what's in it dude!!!
     
    badmoon692008 likes this.
  11. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds


    If you gave every single person above the age of 18 in the US (I assume the population number of 250m I found is legal residents) $1000/mo, it would cost $3 Trillion a year. The total federal budget is $3.8T There's no way to do this without eliminating almost everything else the federal government spends money on:crackup:
     
  12. In Your Corner

    In Your Corner It's a little-known fact...

    If we gave you a ball peen hammer and told you you'd have to whack yourself
    in the forehead with it to see what would happen, I doubt you'd do it.

    If it didn't work on a small scale what makes you think it would do better if expanded?
    I don't believe there are economies of scale when handing out money.
     
    tl1098 likes this.
  13. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds

    Read the link I posted above when we were talking about inflation. There actually are economies of scale. It’s sort of like putting out a fire: a little squirt of water does nothing, but a bucket puts it out.
     
  14. galloway840

    galloway840 Well-Known Member

    Ryoung, I've read up on UBI a bit, and listened to an interesting podcast on "Intelligence Squared debates", which I happen to love, but it's not everyone's cup of tea. If I recall correctly, the side arguing for UBI lost the debate, but there are a lot of variables in such things.

    If we believe the futurists; soon and very soon, automation, AI and ML will eliminate the need for 30-40% of all jobs in the next 10-15 years, and 50%+ jobs in 20-30 years. That is societal disruption on a scale the world has never seen in such a short period of time. So, the question becomes what, as a society, are we going to do to deal with this massive disruption and unemployment. You can't have half of society not working and simultaneously unable to provide the most basic necessities for themselves. You're inviting new levels of crime, looting and possibly revolutionary violence. And, considering half of these people will be us and our children, we need to put our heads together to develop some type of workable solution.

    It seems all of us here on the BBS seem to believe government intervention is bad, welfare is bad, handouts are bad, etc. Mainly because we've all worked our butts off to get where we are, just like our parents and grandparents did. However, what are we going to do when there is no occupational nor productive need for 50% of the world's populace?

    UBI would provide a fundamental floor to prevent societal collapse. If you're not for it, let's hear some alternate solutions. Again, if predictions are true, there will be problems. We can all say, "screw 'em", but that isn't particularly germane to the problem.
     
  15. Rebel635

    Rebel635 Well-Known Member

    Buuuuullllllsheeeeeet!!!

    As someone who’s in the automation industry, robots ain’t replacing anyone anytime soon unless your job is so mechanically simple you shouldn’t be doing it anyways.

    Also, rest of the world. Nowhere near as automated simply due to cost of automation vs labor. Labor is dirt cheap in 2/3 of the world. Zero incentive to automate

    Certainly not in the next 10-15 years. Those are the same chicken little timelines that shold have Miami flooded already.
     
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  16. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds

    15 years or 50, it’s coming. I figure there are three potential outcomes for us: 1. We have some sort of involuntary reset where the lower class revolts against the upper, 2. There’s a major calamity/war/alien invasion that eliminates half the population and also allows a reset, or 3. We figure out some way to move past croney capitalism and give everyone a more level playing field.
     
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  17. In Your Corner

    In Your Corner It's a little-known fact...

    One thing I am sure of is that no government planning will provide
    the answer to future employment problems, especially paying people to do nothing.
    Society adapts to changes naturally if left alone to do so.
     
  18. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds

    How do you know this?
     
  19. R Acree

    R Acree WTF

    A lifetime of experience.
     
    sheepofblue likes this.
  20. Motofun352

    Motofun352 Well-Known Member

    First..."cronie capitalism"? That's NOT our system except in the minds of AOC and her followers. Sure, it has existed but it is a small portion of the whole system.
    Second....What are all those robots producing stuff for if there's no one out there to buy it, and with what? Who owns the robots and the raw materials that they are working with? Our capitalist system in basically a closed loop where labor is bartered for goods. Money is simply the intermediate form of goods. When there is no barter (ie no labor) there is no deal to be made. The owner of the goods (ie money in this case) must give it to the consumer in order for him to barter it back for goods?????Why? This makes no sense. The only way to make it work is to interject another variable like coercion.....Oh Boy, won't that be fantastic......here we go again into State being superior to individual.
     
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