Universal Basic Income

Discussion in 'The Dungeon' started by ryoung57, Feb 13, 2019.

  1. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds


    It’s closer than you think. The ACA, the Fed, the FDA’s control of the food and pharmaceuticals markets, government involvement in farm subsidies, the EPA, CAFE standards, etc, etc. The federal government has near complete control of our economy and it’s all political.


    “Crony capitalism refers to situations where a business' success is impacted by strategic influence from civil servants, politicians, or those in authority.”
     
  2. Motofun352

    Motofun352 Well-Known Member

    I don't deny that crony capitalism exists. The influence of Lobbyists who influence the government for their advantage is real enough. The tax code is rife with loopholes specifically for that purpose. It doesn't change the basis of our economy though. I would love to see that aspect be radically changed. I still don't see the merits of the UBI and how it could be of any benefit. Something for nothing makes no sense.
     
    Britt likes this.
  3. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds


    I've thought a lot about this over the last 24 hours or so, and I think the best way to describe it is that the wealthy would be "buying" the complacency of the poor, in hopes of stabilizing the entire economy. It's not welfare, it's reestablishment of the middle class who've carried the burden of both the wealthy and the destitute for the last 30+ years. The alternative, assuming we continue down our current path of an ever increasing divide between rich and poor, is that at some point in the future the poor will have enough of it and turn on the rich. Capitalism is great and all, but with the way the system is set up now (why I keep referring to it as crony capitalism) it's rigged to protect the wealthy at the expense of the poor and working class. The 2008 bailouts, the insanity of current CEO compensation, the rate of consumer debt, and a dozen other examples are all proof of this.
     
    SuddenBraking likes this.
  4. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds

  5. Banditracer

    Banditracer Dogs - because people suck

    More than anything that shows how stupid people are. Going that long on a vehicle is nuts, idiots buying way more than they can afford or need.
     
    cav115 likes this.
  6. Motofun352

    Motofun352 Well-Known Member

    Wouldn't a better way be to increase competition, decrease regulation (ie permits, studies etc) that stifle entry into the market place? Competition is the way to inhance the breed, it works in evolution and it works in the economy. Taking by force from one to give to another has no end. Eventually everyone lives on the bottom. It might be someone's idea of Utopia where we are are "equal" but it sounds bleak to me.
    For example look back to the late 1800's when the so-called robber barons (Rockefellers, JP Morgans et al) existed. The solution taken was to break up the monopolies and force competition. Not pretty but it worked.
     
  7. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds

    Except now we're encouraging the robber barons. 10 years ago a whole bunch of big companies fucked up in a big way. Traditionally, they'd have failed and made room for upstarts to rise and take their place. What did we do instead? We took $700 BILLION from taxpayers and gave it to these assholes.
     
    galloway840 likes this.
  8. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds


    All you're really doing with something like a UBI is a voluntary income redistribution as opposed to the inevitable redistribution that comes when the bottom falls out and there's no more money for the rich to take from the poor and the system collapses.

    And if it weren't for credit, this would probably already have happened. The majority of the "profits" the market see's anymore are actually coming from debt's incurred by the working class.
     
    SuddenBraking likes this.
  9. Spang308

    Spang308 Well-Known Member

    The major tenet that you are overlooking is the government fucks up everything it touches. Them being involved in any form of income redistribution will end in failure due to fraud and inefficiency. Period.
    It's a fantasy at best.
    Capitalism works. Honestly, it works well and nothing else does. Does the top have an advantage? Of course they do. Doesn't mean you throw out the baby with the bath water...unless you're a Democrat and you decided you don't want him/her. Then I guess it's ok.
     
  10. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds


    We'll never get the government out of the economy. The best we can hope for it that they implement policies that counter the existing policies screwing things up. Would I love to see total Laissez Faire, absolutely. Will it ever happen, not a chance. All the government really needs to do is make sure the top isn't stealing from the bottom, but instead, they're encouraging, and making it easier, for the top to do just that. Nearly all of the regulations in place are to protect the big guys at the expense of the little guys. When a hedge fund manager or some other high level exec steals from thousands of people, do they get in trouble? Rarely, and when they do, it's a soft sentence. I can steal a purse with a hundred bucks in it from an old lady and get 15 years hard time. I can steal the life savings from thousands of people via mismanagement of a fund and get house arrest.
     
  11. Pittenger5

    Pittenger5 Well-Known Member

    Or the same thing as college, when these loans become easily available, prices skyrocket. Especially with all the government mandated safety aids.
    I'm looking at a tacoma, the base model with 4 doors and 4wd (and no selected comfort options) is 32k. No wonder people are taking out longer and longer loans. Especially when you can get a 2% interest loan.
     
    TurboBlew likes this.
  12. Spang308

    Spang308 Well-Known Member

    Oh I hear you there. It definitely pissed me off Wall Street got turned into a casino and when they rolled snake eyes, nobody took the fall. Sadly, this stuff goes unpunished too often. I'm tired of the politcal class getting a pass too. Equal justice should be applied.
     
  13. Motofun352

    Motofun352 Well-Known Member

    Speaking of crony capitalism....Amazon just nixed the deal about going to NYC. This happens to be one area where I agree with the folks who protested the deal. I don't agree with giving big corporations tax discounts for locating in one area over another. It "unlevels" the field. Smaller competitors don't get those breaks. If Amazon is totally focused on tax incentives let them choose a low tax area. If they want to go to an area where there is a better pool of talent let them choose accordingly. No tax breaks. If enough folks and or corporations flee from high taxes the situation will eventually change.
     
  14. sheepofblue

    sheepofblue Well-Known Member

    Actually her system is crony capitalism. Do you really think the government controlling vast segments of the market will not be picking winners (ala Obama's green giveaway or who was put on the board of government motors)? Free markets is the best with limited government oversight. Of course IMO currently the government has been failing. When the banks got bailed out they left the people that did it in charge and did not break them up which was the norm prior. Also there is a lot to be argued on using monopoly laws against some of the tech giants (Amazon is maybe the worst)
     
  15. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds


    Yes. In the free market, buying power and bulk sales should certainly result in better deals, but as far as the government and tax laws are concerned, they should be applied to all equally. That's technically no different than saying a chronic speeder should get lower fines since he provides so much more business to the pd and courts :D
     
  16. Venom51

    Venom51 John Deere Equipment Expert

    Too big to fail was bullshit. I called it when they were in the process of bailing them out. The next on the list to be added to the too big to fail list will be Amazon. It's bullshit. They need to be allowed to fail.
     
    cav115 likes this.
  17. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds


    Why would Amazon fail? At least for now? They're still growing and in the process of putting most brick and mortar establishments out of business.
     
  18. Pittenger5

    Pittenger5 Well-Known Member

    Why would Sears fail? They'd been the biggest retailer for decades ... until a new technology came along they didnt embrace.
     
  19. JBraun

    JBraun Well-Known Member

    I found the podcast interesting and Yang is clearly a bright guy, but the thing that I think he and Rogan are missing is that struggle is an integral part of growth. Pressure makes diamonds, and if you alleviate the pressure, you’ll slow down personal growth for a lot of people.

    I also found Yang’s diatribe about truckers to be extremely pious and condescending. He means well, but the truckers I know are generally the bluest of the blue collar. They’re proud of what they earn and they don’t want charity. They’re resilient people who are already sacrificing time with their families to put food on the table. When their jobs disappear, they won’t need a handout. They’ll pull themselves up by their bootstraps and find a way to provide. It’s the attitude that got them behind the wheel in the first place.

    Maybe @dtalbott can chime in...
     
  20. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds

    Eventually yes, but it too Sears what, 150 years? Amazon isn't anywhere close to that old. And have you heard what they're getting in to now? They're government contractors now, handling cloud services and purchasing. https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/15/business/amazon-government/index.html
     

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