Right and wrong???? - AZ 14 year old car thief shooting

Did he ask the guy his age while they were running?

 

No, and it will certainly be an issue in the shooters lawsuit. I'm sure he was traumatized by being chased with a bat.

 

Didntdonuffin muffkerwaschasinmeeyo, Imjustryngetmine and out comes krakkaasskrakka wifabat.. soibusoutagatankaphisass.

 

I’m just hypothesizing with all of this in the interest of discussion.

There’s a significant difference between getting a speeding ticket. Yes, you can talk your way out of one, but first it starts with some hesitation and a little non-compliance. Those things will probably get you killed if you’re being stopped for carrying.

People at Walmart weren’t ventilated. It was a staged stunt by some open carry advocates.

 

I know a lot of CWP owners that rummage through other’s vehicles while holding their gun in hand. Then they take off running when the cops show up while holding their weapon. Happens everyday.

 

Once again we are back to all of the reactions by the police are caused by the people they come in contact with. It doesn't matter to me if my civil rights are being violated curbside, that is not the place to dispute it, the courtroom is. The courtroom is where I will get my just reward, not arguing with Barney on the side of the road. If I'm legally carrying and I'm told by police to comply with a command, I'm going to comply. I don't know of too many pro 2A gun owners that wouldn't?

I'm not trying to be hostile, if I am I apologize, and I'm not taking your comments that way either.

 

That's because the legal guys are walking on eggshells out of fear. They shouldn't have to. It's kind of funny when you consider concealed carry. It's completely reasonable to consider almost everyone as armed, but it's the visual that sets people off. I could have a 20 minute interaction with a leo with my gun tucked away and he'd be completely comfortable/friendly. If I were to attempt the same interaction with a holstered weapon, he'd probably have me laying facedown on the pavement.

 

It will be completely determined by the conditions of the interaction. There's plenty of you face videos proving you wrong. You keep resorting to absolute statements with out a shred of context or proof. Why is that?

 

After a time yes. If you are open carrying and a cop comes up you should expect a LARGE amount of caution on their part. Since you have done nothing wrong comply and tell the thanks for doing a tough job. If you have a repeated issue (such as getting rousted every time you go out) find out why or file a harassment complaint. See how civil society works and no one gets hurt?

 

I'm well aware that there are plenty of videos of regular armed people talking to cops and there being no problem. My point stems from the general acceptance that when a police officer shoots somebody, it's okay IF that person had a weapon (usually a gun, but sometimes as little as a small knife or some sort of club). Having possession of those items is not a crime. Having possession of those items when suspected of committing a separate crime is also not a crime. Using, or attempting to use one of those weapons to hurt another person IS a crime and should be justification for deadly force, but simply having the ability to do so shouldn't.

We've all heard of military rules of engagement, usually something along the lines of "don't fire unless fired upon" but that's never really considered in the LE arena. Cops seem to get a pass to kill people that they feel might hurt them. Where do you draw the line?

Simply put, I'm not comfortable with it being okay to kill somebody just because "he had a gun/knife/stick/rock/whatever". If he wasn't trying to use it on somebody, he didn't need to get shot. And I'm not comfortable with the slippery slope of accepting that, especially by people that claim to be ardent 2A supporters, because if they're not careful, EVERYONE in possession of a gun will eventually be treated as a criminal. My biggest fear about CCW isn't having to shoot someone, it's having some snowflake catch a glimpse if my shirt rises while I'm bending over to pick up something off the bottom shelf at the grocery store and calling the cops, then getting gunned down by the swat team that's waiting for me in the parking lot.

 

Sure, as long as you survive the encounter. I don't get why there should be anymore caution than they would have with anyone else. EVERYONE outside of naked people or people dressed in spandex could be armed. In a perfect world, if the cops receive a call about a "man with a gun" their response should be "Is he waving it around, pointing it, or shooting people with it? No? Okay, have a nice day. Please call back if he does.".

 

Running from the cops while brandishing a gun is a good way and justifiable reason to get ventilated. It's not rocket surgery. It has nothing to do with 2A and everything to do with personal responsibility. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Since we're on a hypothetical kick, here's one for you. I decide that I want to rob some people but I'm hell bent on not going to jail. Police are called and they see I have a gun and I start running. Since I'm a short fat kid and my sprints aren't what they used to be the cops are closing in on me. Knowing I have no where to go I see your daughter walking fluffy down the side walk and decide to take her hostage. I bet at that point you wished Barney would have put several rounds into me.

"Don't fire unless fired upon" in a combat zone brings young men home draped in flags. IIRC it was one of the first bullshit orders Trump removed from Obama's failed policies regarding rules of engagement. There are also several levels of use of force law enforcement must go through before deadly force is reached. So yes, police do have ROE.

 

I have a simpler solution. Stop doing shit that puts you in the position of possibly being shot at by a police officer. As much as I am not a fan of some of the tactics currently in use I often don't see police officers just shooting at random people for no reason.

Cry a river for criminals if you like but you can have the single largest impact over whether you get shot by a cop or not just as they could.

 

And when the police do that and don't respond, and they guy starts shooting people? While I agree with your statement, as that is how the world should work, we are living in an age where people are scared of their own shadow and call the cops accordingly. They have left LEO with no room but to respond. Their type of response, again, is dictated by the person they encounter, not this myth you are trying to voice that anyone with a gun gets executed.

 

Lots of times there's no running involved. How about the homeless guy in NM they hit with the bullet hose because he had a pen knife? Regarding your hypothetical, did you use the gun to rob people? At that point, you're already using the weapon to commit a crime, so you've crossed the threshold of being a deadly threat. But even so, just running doesn't necessarily constitute a deadly threat or a response of deadly force. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen UNTIL the hostage is taken.

To put it in perspective, what if it's NOT a gun? A car is as much or more deadly, but we don't automatically start shooting at people who run in their cars? What if I'm a trained ninja? I could kill you with a touch of my hand. Should I be shot for running?

One of the biggest hurdles to clear in defense of the 2nd Amendment is fear of guns. This tacit acceptance that anyone with a visible gun is probably going to kill someone is a big part of that. It seems crazy to me that the same people that chant "From my cold dead hands" are completely cool with the police making it happen

 

The reality is that if anyone wanted to shoot somebody, they'd be done with it long before the police showed up. And I'm not voicing a myth, I'm discussing the very real reality that the police (and the general public) consider anyone with a gun a likely criminal. And that when the police do shoot somebody, the mere fact that whoever they shot had some sort of weapon is usually all the justification necessary. Lots of times they made no threatening movements, they just didn't comply with the order to drop the weapon.

 

Just no.

It does when your brandishing a weapon. I'm not real sure what part of that you aren't understanding.

I didn't need to use it to rob people because of my stern mean face. Doesn't matter anymore, I just killed your daughter right before the shootout with police. I'm sure you'll be questioning why the cops didn't shoot me before I reached her.

 

With what you offered in your scenario all alone, NO.

Again, I'll ask, can someone link to a PIS where the cop just randomly walked up to someone and just shot him/her dead for no good reason?

I don't understand, he wasn't engaged in a violent crime.........where did things go wrong?

 

Yes but that was a real gun. The 14 YO who was shot had a BB gun. Cop should have known.

 

But you'd expect the officers responding to probably have their guns out and certainly be at a much higher level of anxiety than they would if it were a "regular" stop? And just to be clear, do you feel this person who is legally carrying a gun have any more ability to create carnage than, say, somebody driving near a crowded sidewalk?

That kid in Ohio? They literally came out of the car guns blazing on him. He'd been at that park fooling around with an airsoft gun for a long time - if he was a threat he'd have shot somebody by then.