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Enough, let's see the books!

Discussion in 'General' started by CRRC93, May 13, 2018.

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  1. worthless

    worthless Well-Known Member

    The article is dated Apr 3 for an event that was scheduled to take place Apr 14-15.

    A few clicks on my google machine told me that 2 weeks prior to their policy renewal date of 3/1, they were told coverage would not be renewed. 6 weeks went by and they were unable to procure insurance and they cancelled the event. On April 23, they procured another insurance policy and they finished off the season. Source https://www.2strokeworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=33692.0 posts #2 and #5.

    I understand the concern about being able to obtain insurance, but, if this is the only precedent to use as a comparison, wondering if really even should be a concern.
     
  2. Trunxgp1224

    Trunxgp1224 Well-Known Member

    Forgot why I logged in here but found this thread, and I'm sitting in conference calls that mean nothing to me *yeah real job*


    I addressed this with some board members and the club at large, I cited sources from the IRS and some of the biggest law firms in the US showing that the CMRA could advertise without ill effect. I was largely ignored and the response I got from the board if I remember correctly was along the lines of they weren't going to advertise and instead depend on grassroots volunteers to get the word out.

    Those aren't the books people want to see, they and to see the ones before the club was called out. The club is only allowing people to go back 3 years, which is after the lawsuit started and the books would/should have been fixed. It is a great policy going forward and I'm not sure why this wasn't always the case.

    Bullshit and you know it, I requested access long before the protective order was put in place.


    Before the lawsuit they simply told members they were under no obligation to show books and records. During the lawsuit, before the protective order, they said they were under no legal obligation to show books and records. After the protective order was put in place they said there was a protective order and some people would word it in ways that made it seem like it had been in place since day one.


    I'd usually tell someone to pound sand and prove I'm guilty of something, but that's just me. However, in the context of a member owned club yes, I would release the books and any member asking because, it's a member owned club.


    In the member owned club context, yes they should be opening up without question. In an everyday personal life situation I'd tell you to get fucked asking me to prove my innocence. It's the way the club is structured that makes the difference.

    But that's the difference between a private business and people pooling money, people would like to know what their money is being pooled together for.

    The club is a 501c7 which is a hobby or club organization. It's not your typical charity or non profit. The point of this IRS category is for people to pool their money together and use it collectively for the betterment of their club. This is the same concept of a kids baseball team or something instead of having every parent have to purchase everything their selves or split the invoice for uniforms and send out individual bills and what not, the IRS allows parents (or whoever) to pool their money together and pay for things in bulk. This is why the club would be exempt from income taxes, because as a club you're simply pooling your money together that was already taxed.

    This is also why the vast majority of the organizations income is required to come from the members, because you're not supposed to be a business, you're supposed to be a hobby organization that is simply pooling their money together to be more effective. This is also why I, and other caused such a stink about it. Because it's the individuals members money being pooled together, not paying money for goods and services from a company. So in response to your statement "Also, if the club is a non-profit / not-for-profit, wouldn't that make 'profitability' less of a driver for opting to do something?" it's irrelevant. If the club is getting all it's income from the members it there is no limit to how much they can stock pile because all that money was already taxed on personal income and a 501(c)7 is simply a group of hobbyist pooling their already taxed money towards a common goal that could otherwise be done individually. This is also why "donations" to the club aren't tax deductible, it's not a charity, it's simply a group of people pooling money.


    Exactly why that part of the suit was dismissed first, because the club kicked him out (wrongly/incorrectly) before he filed the suit but after he started asking questions about the election and books. And which why I also called BS because I'm a member in good standing since 2012 and when they said they didn't need to comply to peyton cause he wasn't a member I requested the books and was also denied. All this before the protective/gag order. So unless anyone on this thread is a CMRA member also, correct the club doesn't need to do shit. Peytons argument was he was unlawfully kicked from the club and therefore should have still had access to request records.


    Correct, club kicked peyton and was no longer required to provide records. Peyton argued (unsuccessfully) he should have never been kicked as the club didn't follow it's own bylaws in kicking him (which they didn't) Had peyton still been a member during the lawsuit I'm sure it would have gone differently, enter the new lawsuit from a standing member.
     
    Yzasserina and VFR#52 like this.
  3. Jedb

    Jedb Professional Novice :-)

    This whole thread is b.s.
    Where are the dead lawyers?

    Show me the Dead Lawyers!!
     
    AC1108 likes this.
  4. Trunxgp1224

    Trunxgp1224 Well-Known Member

    That's the other thread. This thread is about showing the books.
     
    G 97 likes this.
  5. Jedb

    Jedb Professional Novice :-)

    Show me the dead books! All the books!
     
    G 97 likes this.
  6. Champer

    Champer Well-Known Member

    It may not matter much in the context of this thread or the point(s) you are trying to make, but (this may vary by state) it only exempts them from paying federal income tax. They are most likely still subject to state income tax and also paying sales tax on the things they sell (races).

    Suppose they are in Texas where there is no personal income tax - not sure if that expands to organizations also (not familiar, don't live there).
     
  7. Trunxgp1224

    Trunxgp1224 Well-Known Member

    They have a federal 501c7 exemption so assuming someone in the org was smart enough, they filed that with the state and they are also exempt from income tax, although Texas calls it "franchise tax". They are not exempt from paying sales tax on purchases made. Again this is because the whole purpose of these types of clubs is simply to pool money from members to a common goal.

    In the racing stand point it would be "hey guys, lets get together and race motorcycles. I looked it up and it's $10,000 to rent the track and get it all set up. so we only need to cough up $100 each." Everyone would then need to plan it all out and pool their money and someone would have to make the deposit and what not and then pay it, etc. but jack cant make it so now we need to find someone to take his place or we need to have everyone else pay like a dollar more to cover the costs.

    All these non/not for profit organizations do is give like minded people a place to pool their money under one roof and allow an entity to represent their shared interests. It's literally designed these ways with that in mind. That's why I laugh when people just think the CMRA or any other similarly structured org should be allowed to do or say what ever and they simply have to suck it up and deal with it. No, the club exists for the sole purpose of serving the membership. In a big club like the CMRA, yes there are founding documents and bylaws which govern how the club will operate and the members have to abide by those. But to the original question/statement, the club or any club structured like the CMRA does not pay taxes for "selling" races because it's the members money paying for the product. The CMRA and similar 501c7 type orgs are not businesses, they are hobby clubs organized as to collect members money and provide products back to the membership.

    • So if the club sells races, the members don't pay tax and that's not business revenue, because there was not business conducted by the members between the members.
    • If the club sells a T-shirt to a member the club would pay tax on the cost to acquire/print the shirt because they aren't exempt from sales tax, just like if you personally went and bought that shirt. The club however shouldn't then charge sales tax to the member because the club is not selling the shirt as part of a business model, the club is focused on getting people together to race bikes and this would simply be members spending more money on their social activity.
    • Now if the CMRA sold a shirt to the general public, which is acceptable, that would be subject to business income tax in most cases because it's outside the scope of providing for the membership and there are rules that lay out how much income can be generated outside the membership.
    An easy way to figure out how the social club aspect works is to think, could you and some friends get together and do the exact same thing? The CMRA in this case is run much like a business with a BoD, bank account, equipment, an office, etc. but it's no different than anything a group of people could get together and do themselves. If a bunch of parents threw $100/yr plus $20/game into a hat to pay for their kids t-ball club where they just got together and had fun you'd have the exact same scenario. Should the group of parent have to pay taxes because there was $500 left in the hat at the end of the year? hell, no it's a social club with the betterment and enjoyment of kids t-ball. Same with the CMRA, all the members throw money into the bank account for membership and race fees and they socially interact to race against the other members. That's why you see the things you do with the CMRA, it's literally a social club and not a business.
     
    VFR#52 likes this.
  8. inge

    inge Between fight or flight, one should choose wisely.

    Interesting reading:

    Chapter 11 Bankruptcy - Definition

    "in cases involving fraud, dishonesty or gross incompetence, a court-appointed trustee steps in to run the company throughout the entire bankruptcy proceedings."

    https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/chapter11.asp
     
    VFR#52 likes this.
  9. dsapsis

    dsapsis El Jefe de los Monos

    That definition presumes that fraud/dishonesty/incompetence has been legally established/proven. Is this the case?
    If not, I see your comment in bad faith. YMMV.
    RoadRacing News.
     
  10. motoboy

    motoboy Well-Known Member

    Night of the Living Threads
     
    JJJerry likes this.
  11. G 97

    G 97 Garth

    Why anyone would want to race with them is beyond me. They certainly didn’t do the general membership any good while doing nothing but protecting themselves at the clubs expense. Can’t say I’m shedding any tears over this.
     
    VFR#52 and badmoon692008 like this.
  12. G 97

    G 97 Garth

    This actually made me chuckle a bit.

    “Upon emerging from this process the goal is a restructured CMRA with streamlined operations free from the constraints of unjustified legal actions.”

    How about abiding by the clubs own by laws and non profit requirements.
    But no, fight to the death of the club. Great board member leadership there, but not surprised given a few of the who’s who involved.
     
  13. Rising

    Rising Well-Known Member

    Is it ironic that the club was started by a lawyer?
     
    VFR#52 likes this.
  14. ChemGuy

    ChemGuy Harden The F%@# Up!

    According to Alanis Morissette, the Arbiter of Irony, No. No its not.

    :D
     
    G 97 likes this.
  15. Hyperdyne

    Hyperdyne Indy United SBK

    Here’s the deal..

    No matter how an organization structures, there will always be some douchebag who gets his/her feelings hurt and sues the club because he/she can’t get over themselves.

    The rest of the population will just show up and race motorcycles because they don’t suck.

    Did I miss anything?
     
    AC1108, CMRA 270, crashman and 3 others like this.
  16. Jesse Davis

    Jesse Davis Well-Known Member

    And that is the bottom line here. Life must be really difficult when you’re the small dick in the room.
     
  17. VFR#52

    VFR#52 Well-Known Member

    Well from what the facts are i do believe you and 90% have failed to even remotely see.
    Is the fact that the BOD by NOT following the Bylaws setup by the original founders of the club and NOT just producing the books where in fact breaking the law.
    And Any member has a right to see the books and financials the club has.
    So please explain to me and the world how any lawsuits had anything thing to bring this on the club?
    Why did the BOD just not open the books and prevent all the lawsuits to begin with?
    While i honestly hate to see the club members go through this.
    Maybe for once the truth will come out for all the members to see the facts as to why they spent thousands of dollars to keep from showing the books.
    Now lets say for your rebuttal is they showed the last 3 yrs that are on their website.
    I would point you to what track rental cost in same yr for same amount of days at different months of any yr.
    How about the rider school amounts to how many took it on fridays.
    Also i would like to point out how much revenue Friday track days brought in when club clearly stated that they lost money and was not worth doing them when Lonestar Trackdays was doing them.
    But hey thats all in the past and now if i figure right the club will have an audit through the court system for the bankruptcy.
    Some people who stood up to bring out the truth and fought to expose the people who are actually at fault for this clubs current situation are the ones your attacking.
    And the ones who stood up are the ones you should have simply supported by making the BOD open the books over 4 yrs ago and the club would have fired them and learned to follow the bylaws and be held accountable by the members.
    The people who filed lawsuits did so to make the BOD and the employees of Cmra be held accountable.
    The question is why didn't the members hold the BOD accountable and either prove their innocence or them guilty and move on?
    As Linz has always said if they guilty them make them pay and leave the club.
    If they innocent them prove them innocent and lets move on with the club.
    Ive restrained from commenting until now because all that comes out is a flame job and bashing me and others who know the truth.
    I get that people just want to race.
    I truly do or i wouldn't have been doing it since 1990.
    This club has blackballed people before i left the 1st time and they continue to do it after i left the 2nd time.
    This is no way to run an organization that promotes Road Racing.
    I truly hope that the facts will see the light for all the world to see and Cmra will get rid of the people who put this club where it is and can go back to being fun and the club has the members best interests 1st and foremost.
    Ive said my peace and im out until the facts prove some people right or wrong.
    Be safe and lets go racing.

    Steven
     
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  18. Johnny B

    Johnny B Cone Rights Activist

    So wasn't AHRMA. :D
     
    Sabre699 likes this.
  19. G 97

    G 97 Garth

    By laws and not for profit requirements be damned. LOL
     
    VFR#52 likes this.
  20. G 97

    G 97 Garth

    And right on Que the nut frictioners come out. LOL

    That's ball rubbers to the non initiated.
     
    VFR#52 likes this.

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