Brake then gas then turn

Maybe this was my issue I never listened to any one. Well except Tman.

Just went and rode my motorcycle, self taught, figured it out later when it spit me off a few times.

Younger generation seems to need instructions on how to fuck up. If your scared that much go do something besides riding a motorcycle.

Yes I watched the video, what ever. I wouldn’t be Mladin after that coaching.

 

self-taught is one of the least effective ways to get good at anything. even if u do make it to the same skill level (unlikely), it took far longer than if you had taken advantage of quality coaching. the entirety of society is better at things because people are constantly building on the knowledge of others.

 

I’ll hold judgement until you release your video. Till then I’m not buying what your selling.

 

All very interesting points...
suspension/spring compression and extension is something I hadn't thought of. Just off the top of my head, I wonder if that plays in the example of tucking the front coming off brakes and unloading the front wheel or does it occur quicker than that? (does a Honda with antidive front end or a hossack or duolever with antidive suffer the same off brake front end traction loss?)
Braking and cornering as vector forces, yes. good point.
Go pro videos of the front fork are very interesting. I would love to find one of Marquez going around a track and see how well he transitions from braking to cornering to the apex.

This is one a like to watch from time to time from my local track.

 

Thanks again for the discussion...

 

I don't coach high-level athletes, only friends that need help. I did help a friend to cut ~5s at Laguna this past weekend so he could qualify for the Supersport race. He finished 20th and last after running off, which is still amazing given how little practice he had at his new much-faster pace. im super proud of him.

other than that, I have a few videos where I talk about riding, data, physics, etc. theres a link to my Youtube channel in my signature.

 

im sure all the GP data engineers can see if the rider released the brake lever too fast, causing the front tire to unload too quickly. but we'll never get that data. the timing of it all does play a huge role. things would be simpler if the loads were instantaneous.

im looking for that video of Marquez I was talking about. nada so far.

funny enough, I had a cam pointing at my forks for my last track crash. the data says I wasn't faster, tighter, braking more, or carrying more lean than previous laps. here it is if you have IG. https://www.instagram.com/p/Bwa0bq4nhwW

 

First thing I noticed was the zip tie on the fork.

 

Both braking and Cornering forces are utilizing the same contact patch, so braking into the area of the curve where where cornering loads are near their max levels is a bad idea. The load increase on the front tire is GREATLY offset by the lateral forces it imposes on the front tire. IE their is more traction to turn the motorcycle without brake loading.
If the front end is tucking when you let go of the brake odds are you have excessive rebound damping unloading the tire and possibly a combination of too soft a spring with too much preload. There are turns everywhere that require you to turn in while either still accelerating or after all braking is done and you are transitioning to throttle. How do you make it through those corners without braking into them???

 

Your 2nd sentence doesn’t make any sense. Braking doesn’t increase lateral load cuz vectors. Youre describing the classic traction circle, which is too simple to be correct.

There are plenty of turns where you turn in first then brake, esp on smaller bikes. Turning in slowly allows the cornering load to load the front tire. Grip is reduced because of the lack of braking load, so you technically have to be going slower at turn-in than if you were braking. But it doesn’t matter in a race because it’s all dictated by the shape of the track, ie everyone is dealing with the same thing.

 

Okay, seems we are speaking a different language.
Their is no way to increase the available traction of a tire by adding the rotational resistance of braking to the contact patch of the front tire. Adding force, even if it is in a different direction decreases the traction surplus of the contact patch and brings it closer to its threshold and a loss of traction.
A tire generates maximum force when it is slipped a little. For some tires that may be at 3% and others it may be at 10%. Exceed the percentage for that tire and the COF plummets.

 

got any supporting evidence? a vector diagram would be cool. all the support ive given in this thread disagrees, as does my personal experience.

look at GPS data much? ive crashed in corners by trailing off the brakes sooner. next session, ill go in on the brakes later and harder, carry more speed & lean angle, and not crash. same line, more speed, more cornering force, more braking force... no crash. your thought suggests this isnt possible. I doubt it'd be hard to find racers with similar experiences.

 

But we're not just adding resistance to the contact patch when we squeeze the front brake. We're adding weight to it. There's a big difference in available grip when you compare 200 lbs to that contact patch vs 400 lbs.

 

And when Theory doesn't match Practice, it's time to come up with a new Theory.

 

The only way to increase load on one tire is by removing load from another. UNLESS banking or Elevation is involved.
If you are adding 200lbs of vertical pressure on the front tire you are removing that amount from the rear.
I’m not going to wast time to find tire load versus COF charts. They are out there if you look for them.

Again, if you are falling/having severe issue when you release the brake there is a excessive rebound issue totally unloading the tire in that instance.

 

we arent talking about the rear tire. but ill play. what you brought up is another good reason why the rear tire is larger. think of all the mid corner crashes you've seen, prior to someone getting on the throttle. how many are tucking the front vs losing the rear? 10:1? even if the rider isnt on the brakes, the front tire is folding first. the rear tire isnt that relevant in this thread.

in my latest example, I was not fully off the brakes.

crashing when using improper technique is not a severe issue. its just justification that the technique was poor.

 

Okay, so riders only tuck the front when they let go of the brake too soon....
How about you provide some factual evidence to support that claim?

You are stuck looking at this from one perspective. Try looking at it from a different view. When the front tire breaks traction it is because we exceeded its limits of traction for the load it is under. While the maximum amount of work a tire can do increases with load it is a increase of diminishing returns. IE, it can provide more work relative to the load put on it at light loads compared to heavier loads.
As I’ve said multiple times. If you are loosing front grip when you release the brake lever odds are really good that the rebound is too slow and is completely unloading the tire.

 

got some context for the graph? its meaningless as-is.

I didnt say that.

Its funny that u keep focusing on that without addressing all the other points that arent related to this specific type of crash. I didnt provide an anecdote of me crashing like this. who's stuck looking at it from one perspective?

I know the increase in grip is a diminishing return. I havent said otherwise. I suspect your mistaken on how "quickly" the return diminishes.

 

That chart is pretty self explanatory and a pretty reasonable example of race tires on a paved surface. Load versus directional force.
I doubt if their is any substantial difference between the percentages or rate of exchange for the thrash shown and what is used in MotoAmerica stuff. The curve may be a little different but it won’t be substantial. That pretty much lays out how quickly it diminishes.
I believe you underestimate the braking force you are adding to the contact patch to allow enough transfer to increase the load on the front tire. You are not going to 200lbs of vertical pressure on the front tire without subjecting it to substantially higher directional load. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

Hey, you guys are like MIT mathematicians/physicists or something.....my low IQ is preventing me from understanding 90% of what is going back/forth.

I have an unrelated Question, that I have always been curious, no one has been able to answer.....I suspect you guys finally give me the answer.
1st, I was NOT a fast/skilled/good racer/rider. I was a street squid who raced maybe 3x a year, for a few years at a time, and then long layoffs. Everytime/weekend I showed up at the track, it was like starting from scratch. I did no reading/studying/thinking between races/events. Lazy.
Everytime I showed up at track, I just rode seat of pants, lots of bad street habits, etc. If I felt good that day, I would do OK. If not good that day, I would get slaughtered.
The only riding gifts I felt I had was I could 'feel' the tires very well and had exceptional balance/body-movements. Other than that, LOTS of bad habits and lack of understanding of race craft.

Q: 2001, 1st year on a bike, after 10yr layoff from riding bikes. 3rd time at racetrack that year. Experimenting, trying to figure it out.
Entering T3 @ Gateway. For whatever reason(??????) on an entrance, I 'decided' to relax on my TBraking and enter the corner purposefully too fast to hold my desired line, once my knee was on the deck on entrance, I then on purpose controllably/forcefully/abruptly countersteering the bars and broke the front tire loose, and the sliding/skating front tire slowed the bike to the correct speed and was able to have correct line at apex. Once I did it, I kept doing it, and started doing it in other turns. I always loaded/plowed/scrubbed w/ the front from day one, this was not that, this was completely different....I was actively braking the front loose w/ the bars and it would 'glass' as it slowed and brought me to apex. Old school AMA/WERA/CCS Super Dave Rosno told me my riding would end soon if I kept doing it. I only did it that one weekend/day. I realize what I was doing was prolly the MOST incorrect way to try and go-fast, I get it, I was just experimenting/F-ing around, trying to learn bike/stuff. I am sure 90% of the things I tried was going down dead-end rabbitt holes, and why I never got fast, why I never figured out race-craft..

My Q is, what mechanically was goiing on there? No one has ever been able to explain it to me. I do not know why I did it the first time I did it, I did not undertsand what I was doing mechanically, I dont know why i did it. I just decided to do/try it on entrance for some unknown reason, w/out any premeditated thought/mechanical reason. I dunno????? I was entering the corner, and out of know where decided to do/try it. ??? Once I did it, it was strange sensation, and then kept doing it. Dumb, but would love to know what/why/etc was going on there.
TY