Brake then gas then turn

Seems like Dave might be a good guest on the podcast where you guys can talk through these things and sort it out a bit more.

 

Sounds like you need to work on your setup a bit then... Maybe DM can help you out with a setup that’s a little more forgiving and versatile.

Seriously though, saying you have to do it x way to learn and improve is wrong. Having a wider range of skills and options will make a better rider and racer.

 

Does this BTGTT style use Steer or CounterSteer to achieve success ?

 

Every corner is different, bikes are different, tires are different, track surfaces are different and riders are different. There are wrong ways of taking a corner, but there are usually a lot more than one right way to take a given corner. This is true all the way up to the MotoGP level and those bikes and riders are all roughly the same in comparison to a 300, SV650, TZ250, 600, stock R1, and 1000cc suprebike.

On the track walk of NJMP this past weekend, Brandon Paasch was along. The Evolve folks kept trying to emphasize trail braking at every corner and Brandon kept saying "Well on the KTM cup bikes were were wide open through there".

 

Well you can steer the motorcycle with your body so that doesn't matter much.

 

u must have the missed the part about "slower". all the good rider coaches that have seen me race know that I need to brake harder and deeper into corners to go faster. no one is telling me to release brake pressure sooner because thats the wrong way to go fast around the track. its not what good coaches say. its not what race winners do. its not how motorcycles should be setup for the track. a "more forgiving and versatile" setup is just going to be slower.

a wide range of incorrect skills doesnt help anyone. thats where a lot of this thread started. teaching someone a skill that they will need to unlearn soon after is shitty.

I bet if Kris and I compared off-the-brake points around any of the MA tracks, they'd be very comparable. we can try it at Sonoma. and they wont be anywhere close to brake-gas-turn.

 

You hit the gas then you countersteer hard. Then see what happens

 

Oh shit I justpissed myself...

 

I love these threads where we actually get to discuss riding technique. It's something I think about a lot and am always working on- that is what happens when you have very little natural talent.

Even though he is talking to complete beginners, I don't think it's a smart coaching technique to say you should be on the gas after turn in. I know trail braking is an advanced skill, but you can at least teach a beginner that you decelerate to the apex, and accelerate after (forget about entry and exit corners for the moment) and position the bike correctly on the track to achieve that goal.

They are going to have to un-learn what they are taught as soon as the pace picks up, and this is harmful for their confidence and their understanding of proper riding technique.

I'm not even going to get into the suspension or the zip tie.

 

I disagree. It is a very good method for new riders to learn to just ride through the corner without trying to slow or accelerate during it. Remember, this is novice group track day stuff, not beginner club racer stuff.

 

Depends on which Kris you are comparing to... the one that is in learn the track mode or the fuck it, let go of the brake and scrub the speed as I turn in Kris. They use very different techniques...

 

What about body position ? Where does that come into play ?

 

When your zip tie hits the bottom

 

how much braking are you being told to do exactly?

if you are doing a significant amount of braking then by your same argument you aren't maximizing corner speed. part of that cornering force is used to slow the bike up to just short of the apex. So, you are traveling slower at the apex, later on the gas. On a classic entry corner, it doesn't matter. On an exit corner, you'll be left for dead.

You can dive bomb anyone into a corner if you don't care about the exit. Park it on the far side of the track. But later and deeper is only correct to a point. At some point it is a matter of diminishing returns and getting on the gas is going to leave you with better drive out of the corner.

 

"told to do"?
No. The stopwatch decides.

 

More. No one has put a number on it. If only they’d let me see their other rider’s data.

The “traction circle” isnt a circle and braking doesn’t use cornering force how u are implying. Braking increases load and contact patch which increases grip. So I can go faster and turn tighter on the brakes, compared to off them. The front brake also changes the geometry which usually helps the bike hold a tighter line. So, you will accomplish more turning on the brake.

As for actual apex speed - or rather the slowest speed in the corner - I’m not too far off the MA race winners. In practice, they’ll pass me in the braking zone, we go the same speed for a little bit, then they get to the throttle sooner and take off. If I were pro, I’d brake later, carry the same apex speed, and throttle sooner. At this point in my riding, if I try to brake where they do, I do kill my apex speed. But I know their speed is possible, just gotta work on it more.

 

What’s this DATA you speak of? The only Data we have is segment times from live timing and what the Jockey mutters after he gets off the bike...
LOL

 

I just think you need to keep it simple and cover the basics with beginners and as they progress and can demonstrate an understanding of the basics you start feeding them more details and advanced techniques etc. I certainly wouldn’t introduce a zip-tie or discuss initial tire wear etc. As always lay down the skills and teach the skills that are going to be built and layered upon in the long run. No short term “throw away” stuff. Give them the basic long term, universal and consistent skill-sets that provide the proper foundation going forward that can be further built upon.
Keep it simple. Know your audience and adapt to their learning curve. Just my .02

 

thanks for the discussion, btw... And i realize we've gone way beyond the scope of the original question but there are some things I want to point out.

yes, we all know that front load increases with braking, it makes us feel better that we are loading the front tire when we turn (at least for those that have tasted the kool aid). But translating into more available load for cornering is not a simple direct 1:1 relationship.
only a portion of the frictional force utilized in braking is translated into load at the front wheel. load transfer is proportional to height of COG over wheelbase and is well less than 1. so the added normal force will always be less than that used up by braking. Add to that the fact that tire load sensitivity means typically frictional force does not increase exactly proportional with increased load as in theoretical physics.
Braking and cornering certainly do add up to determine the total force on the tire. They are not somehow separated into two forces that can be isolated from each other. Reach the limit of adhesion on cornering and add brake you've crashed. reach the limit on brakes (like in the rain) and try to corner and you've crashed.

A better way to think about it is that without trail braking, you are not fully utilizing "maximum" frictional force on the front wheel. If you initiate a steering input at the front wheel WITHOUT the brakes, the forces start at zero and ramp up to the apex. A lot of frictional force is "left on the table" as you are making your way to the apex. If instead, you are braking for the corner and make that initial steering input on the brakes, you are starting at 50, 75, 90% front tire force depending on how hard you are braking and slowly adding your cornering force, thereby maximizing your front tire usage (or get some nasty chatter). Yamaha champschool's 100 points of traction. You are quicker to the apex initially and USUALLY taking a shorter path to the corner.

So, when you let off the brakes really depends when your cornering forces are at their maximum, which translates to how you want to set up your exit. In others words, the answer isn't always more brakes later, but depending how you want to set up the corner utilize what forces you have available at the front tire for that particular corner.

 

Cambered motorcycle tires likely don’t show load sensitivity like car tires. I’ve only ever found one study on this, an FSAE paper from a team that used motorcycle tires on their car. They showed that grip is proportional to load for significant loads, unlike car tires that fall off even for minor loads. Everyone knows this, blaming it on the increase in contact patch, but I don’t think people realize how awesome it is hehe. Because of all this, the facts are likely not entirely what you’ve described.

A lot of pro racers tuck the front right when they let off the brakes. It seems to be more common in GP, but I’ve seen it in every championship on TV. This suggest they do get some grip for free by loading the tire with the brakes. If they had held the brakes a little longer, speed and required cornering force would be reduced and they would have not crashed. This crash also seems to happen more than the opposite - overloading the tire with too much braking.

Braking at the limit of cornering traction for sure causes you to crash because the load takes time but the larger grip requirement doesn’t. Thankfully the ideal corner entry usually requires the opposite - load first. This is also why we apply the brakes and don’t hammer them. The load takes time.

Your description of YCRS traction points seems like a better explanation of grip than the original traction circle explanation. It implies the concept that grip increases with load. But I still think it’s a simplification that misses some of the finer points. There’s a lot going on here.

There’s a video somewhere showing Marquez’s fork position for a lap. It’s interesting to see how well he controls it with the brakes. The forks go down in the braking zone and stay relatively constant until he gets on the throttle. I’d have to do a lot of vector math to figure how that translates into true tire load.

One other thing I haven’t fully considered... friction force is an angled vector when braking and cornering at the same time. The hypotenuse of a triangle is shorter than the sum of the sides.