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Brake then gas then turn

Discussion in 'General' started by Ra.Ge. Raptor, Jul 16, 2019.

  1. Ra.Ge. Raptor

    Ra.Ge. Raptor wanna_be_fast

    Another note from his videos:
    "you use all of the front end travel (zip tie pos), let me stiffen it up"->He adds preload.
    People think he stiffens or softens their springs when in reality he alters the ride height.
     
    418 and K51000 like this.
  2. R1M370

    R1M370 Dr. P Ness

    Cut and paste it,, that will work

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
    Gorilla George likes this.
  3. Ra.Ge. Raptor

    Ra.Ge. Raptor wanna_be_fast

    You really had to tell.... :mad:
    :crackup:
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
    R1M370 and Gorilla George like this.
  4. Aww damnit. Why didn’t I think of that. :mad:

    Shit.

    :crackup:
     
    Phanuel and R1M370 like this.
  5. ekraft84

    ekraft84 Registered User

    Everyone's different. Lenny is great. Dave's a good guy and I/we had success with him as well. I wouldn't expect internet videos to go over well, no matter who's doing them. IMO, Dave's true skillset isn't tailored to the people he's making those videos for.

    With Dave, we never checked sag. But I wasn't some new rider either. We were in the ballpark regarding setup and were looking for smaller chunks/improvements, where Dave was helpful. We each brought things to the table and with the 750, we had it dialed in. If it wasn't for the rider, we wouldn't have finished runner-up at the GNF in both 750 classes. That was all on me.
     
    Laz, TurboBlew, 5axis and 1 other person like this.
  6. Knotcher

    Knotcher Well-Known Member

    I'm trying to get all the buttons in Panamera GTS land. FML. Impossible.
     
  7. turner38

    turner38 Well-Known Member

    Well, in reality it is actually softening it up because it raises the ride height and it is therefore in a softer portion of the secondary spring curve.:D

    Never met Dave, it does seem like he makes rather broad blanket statements at times in the stuff of his I’ve seen that can lead new or less experienced guys in the wrong direction.
    Many suspension guys are selling Kool-Aide...
    Softer springs make traction.
    This wear is caused by too much rebound.
    This wear is caused by too little rebound.
    And on and on...
     
  8. motion

    motion Nihilistic Member

    He is probably referring to maintenance throttle thru the turn. Using the throttle to weight the suspension properly before settling into a corner.

    Dave is a good guy and has a lot of knowledge. I doubt he would be wrong about something so obvious. Just my worthless 0.02 :)
     
    K51000 likes this.
  9. Phanuel

    Phanuel Well-Known Member

    He goes into it some more here:


    It's clearly beyond my understanding. Adding throttle for an acceleration while adding lean angle (turning?) doesn't make much sense to me.
     
  10. stangmx13

    stangmx13 Well-Known Member

    he is referring to maintenance throttle. but its still the wrong technique for the track.

    the throttle doesnt weight the suspension properly for corner entry. only the brakes can do that.

    hes conflating track and street techniques. following that technique at the track is going to cause a lot of front end tucks due to underloaded front tires.

    a lot of that is gibberish. grip doesnt cause a motorcycle to turn a tighter radius and the throttle will not increase front grip. talking about "grip" without specifying which end is pointless.

    I don't think u can learn anything from that video.
     
  11. condon66

    condon66 Member well known

    He explains it for you. A motorcycle chassis is most stable, while leaned, with enough throttle to load it. He's not saying pin the throttle. He's saying enough throttle to load the chassis to where it works best at absorbing imperfections in the surface while squatting the rear tire into the surface increasing the area of the contact patch, which provides more grip, which offers you the opportunity for more speed. His comments here are about manual inputs aimed at getting a bike through a corner in the way it physically works best and is most stable, which is with a bit of throttle. Think of when you've seen a bike lifting the front under hard acceleration while leaned over. The bike Stays leaned over and to an extent holds radius. That shows how physically stable a bike is while leaned over and with some acceleration enough to load the rear. That's my take anyway. It's not really something your ever going to find applicable on the street. To some extent, yes. But what he's explaining can be applied much more so on the track. I don't know if that helps you any but, I figured I'd give it a shot.
     
    K51000 likes this.
  12. condon66

    condon66 Member well known

    I think you have to consider he stated "when you can see the exit". He is saying when you can see the exit you can take advantage of being able to accelerate through the corner.
     
    Gorilla George likes this.
  13. condon66

    condon66 Member well known

    Getting back on the throttle doesn't in some circumstances help the bike turn?
     
  14. condon66

    condon66 Member well known

    To the average street rider or inexperienced track rider? I agree.
     
  15. stangmx13

    stangmx13 Well-Known Member

    you are ignoring effects on front grip. so your thought that this is how a bike "physically works best" is wrong. this technique practically minimizes front grip through a corner. because of that, this technique only works if your speed at turn in is below the maximum apex speed*. the more you accelerate early, the lower your entry speed must be. this lack of entry speed is slow. its also a great way to maximize lean angle for any corner, which is unsafe. new-ish track riders especially do a great job of maximizing lean angle, dragging knee all the way to the exit curb. what happens when they try to push harder using this technique... they crash.

    *in reality, your entry speed must be far below the maximum apex speed because you've sacrificed a lot of front grip by not loading the front tire.

    a few other things:
    - load will not in all cases help a motorcycle absorb track imperfections. and again, what about the front tire!
    - an accelerating motorcycle cannot hold radius without adding more lean angle.
    - stability doesnt help a motorcycle turn by definition. increasing stability for corner entry is often counter productive to making the corner.

    what hes explaining is safe-ish on the street and terrible for the track. its literally the MSF beginner street rider stuff thats taught to new riders. its also the first thing that a street rider must unlearn to ride well on track.

    this doesnt matter. see points above.

    it can depending on the turn and setup. but thats not what he said.
     
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  16. condon66

    condon66 Member well known

    My understanding of what creates the most stable situation in direct relation to the geometry of a chassis is not incorrect.

    And I believe he is making a comment about a specific type of corner and you are turning his comments into him implying this technique for every corner in the world.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  17. Britt

    Britt Well-Known Member

    Everyone has a GreatTheory until Physics & Gravity takeover .
     
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  18. stangmx13

    stangmx13 Well-Known Member

    sry, thats not true either. for every asphalt corner that requires braking, you will maximize front grip and potential speed through the corner by braking to near the apex. thats every corner that hes talking about since he starts with "brake". if a rider has the skill, there is never a situation where brake-gas-turn is faster or safer.

    I could probably make the case that a rider without the skill will be safer too, but thats a diff convo.
     
  19. condon66

    condon66 Member well known

    That is so not true. There are late apex corners where braking is done well before the apex.
     
  20. condon66

    condon66 Member well known

    Im not even talking about braking. Im just replying to your comments.
     

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