Another Boeing 737 Max-8 crash

Discussion in 'General' started by SPL170db, Mar 10, 2019.

  1. SPL170db

    SPL170db Trackday winner

  2. speedluvn

    speedluvn On a Quest For Speed

    I saw this this morning and was gonna start the thread but the DST has me a little lazy.

    Where was the first one crash?
     
  3. sicc

    sicc Well-Known Member

    Indonesia
     
  4. SPL170db

    SPL170db Trackday winner

    Lion Air Flight 610 crashed into the Java Sea in Indonesia on 10/29/18

    Ethiopian Air Flight 302 crashed near Addis Ababa early this morning
     
  5. I'm with Stupid

    I'm with Stupid Sentimental Visigoth

    CFIT-by-wire
     
  6. ChemGuy

    ChemGuy Harden The F%@# Up!

    Not sure how controlled it was.

    Speculation so far is both planes seemed to have unstable vertical speed shortly after takeoff. If the MCAS or other similar system did this one...well not good for boeing.

    Some are also speculating that due to lack of radio call...maybe something terrorist related.
     
  7. speedluvn

    speedluvn On a Quest For Speed

    Could this be a system change within this new plane that the airline was unfamiliar/unaware of?

    To those in the know, would the described situation be a Boeing or specific airline issue?

    :flag:

    :bow:
     
  8. SuddenBraking

    SuddenBraking Well-Known Member

    Was definitely a bit unnerving to see that on CNN as my plane today (a 737) was experiencing some decent turbulence.
     
  9. ChemGuy

    ChemGuy Harden The F%@# Up!

    The new Max is shares the same type certificate as the original 737. To make new versions over the years Boeing does the math, builds some, flys them and gives the data to the feds and says...here its just a little different but flys and heres the data.

    For the max series the plane is so much bigger and bigger engines from what Ive read they were worried about getting the the plane in a situation where the angle of attack was too high (ie the nose was too high) and it could stall the wing. Stalls are fine in small straight winged planes. We do them all the time. In swept wing jets...well things can get a little...fun...

    So to keep the plane in the air they added a system to automatically lower the nose if the angle of attack got too high. We wont know for certain but it seems the Lion air plane may have had a bad sensor or something that caused this system (MCAS) to keep trying to lower the nose. the pilots fought it and kept winning...until the didnt.

    Best part is Boeing didnt really tell people about this or make it something they were trained on and how to turn it off if it effed up.

    Since the Lion air crash anyone flying the max should have heard of this and how to turn it off.




    Video of what can happen when you stall a passenger jet.

     
    Dom17 likes this.
  10. notbostrom

    notbostrom DaveK broke the interwebs

    Even doing it in the simulator you can see how serious those guys took it
     
    XFBO and 418 like this.
  11. joec

    joec brace yourself

    Uh oh......
     
  12. ChemGuy

    ChemGuy Harden The F%@# Up!

    Simulator...That video I posted was a real plane...

    You can hear the wind noise change over the cockpit as they went waaaaayyyyy too fast.
     
    Dom17 and vizsladog like this.
  13. Monsterdood

    Monsterdood Well-Known Member

    The sad thing on the Lion Air was that the augmentation system could be turned off, but I think pilots develop so much trust in these types of systems, they are reluctant to turn them off unless the system clearly says “fault”. Undected faults, low redundancy and insufficient cross compares (simplex/duplex architecture) is a bad situation when the system builds undeserved trust because it works perfect most of the time.

    I’ll track this latest crash with interest for lessons learned.

    PS, if you’re tracking my comments and can engineer these systems, I might have a high paying job in CT with your name on it! DM me.
     
  14. speedluvn

    speedluvn On a Quest For Speed

    The question that I have is it the airlines responsibility to “learn” new systems included on the newly delivered planes? Or does Boeing have certain amount responsibility to the airline to understand the “new systems” on newly delivered planes?
     
  15. ChemGuy

    ChemGuy Harden The F%@# Up!

    Airlines do their own policies, training etc. Somethings are required by the FAA or manufacturer.
    In this case the 3 of them (FAA, Boeing, Airlines) are kinda pointing fingers at each other now. The lawyers will figure it out. :rolleyes: My guess is Boeing will hafe to open their checkbook for Lion Air.


    If this is another MCAS issue/failure....it wont be good.
     
  16. I'm with Stupid

    I'm with Stupid Sentimental Visigoth

    Apparently my sarcasm was a bit opaque.

    CFIT = pilot error.

    "by wire" = computer error.

    Has Boeing made a plane that is uncontrollable by pilots in an emergency situation due to overreaching software? We will see.
     
  17. 418

    418 Expert #59

    I shit my pants just watching that.

    Balls of steel.
     
    VintageWannabe likes this.
  18. ducnut

    ducnut Well-Known Member

    Holy SHIT! I’ll stick to operating things on the ground.
     
    XFBO likes this.
  19. speedluvn

    speedluvn On a Quest For Speed

    That footage looks like it was a planned stall. The crew appeared to work together to bring the plane back under control with the least amount of altitude lost. It’s when things occur unexpectedly is when problems go down hills when things don’t work as they “should”.
     
  20. BHP41

    BHP41 Well-Known Member

    So you’re saying they take 737s to 30k ft and stall them intentionally? Interesting.
     

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