2020 Beemer Press release...

Not to mention one rider's opinion of slow steering or high steering effort may have a positive basis beyond the obvious results of a labored turn entry with a heavy-handling bike.
I'll take the stability in a turn over some lightweight-handling machine that may end up doing something stupid if I blink mid-corner.
Face it, if you're racing, you're changing your lines as you go. Get a little too excited in traffic with a light handling machine and you could completely upset the chassis.

Having said that, unless we personally know the rider(s) commenting on these machines, their words are no better or worse than anyone else's that have ridden both machines. As with any other new-to-the-scene generation of bike, what works remains to be seen.

 

If we want to draw a hard line at "stock for stock", so be it...then remove the line item for the exhaust and tune. But the other variables must be addressed. If not, then they are only testing which has the best OEM tires, or which bike's OEM gearing best suits that particular track, or which bike's OEM spring rates match a particular rider, or which bike's default geometry is best suited for that track, or which bikes characteristics meet a particular rider's preferences.

That is especially true when talking about the Panigale. It is the most finicky bike in the world. It doesn't transfer weight to the rear very well. I had to go down 2 spring rates in the rear, and doing so helped me gain over a second per lap. If I were testing it based on how it is out of the box, I could have said it was the worst bike ive ever tried to race. But even without changing any components...just adjusting the spring rates, changing the wheelbase, experimenting with air pressure, and playing with the electronics, I was able to ultimately set a PB on it. But then when going to a new track, we would have to start from scratch.

What are the chances that the Panigale's default geometry, spring rates, wheelbase, gearing, etc are all perfect for that particular track and rider?

Imagine doing a test at Barber...and one bike's OEM gearing is perfect for Barber, where another's gearing would be perfect for Road America. The first bike would have a distinct advantage because the second bike would be between gears a lot, not able to utilize the full RPM range. Or the first bike can stock with spring rates more suited for Barber. Would it be fair to say the first bike is a better bike? No.

OR...if they don't want to spend the time to remove the variables that are no "fault" of the bike (tires, spring rates, geometry, rider preferences, etc), then they need to remove any conclusions about which bike is the best, especially based on lap times.

If those variables don't matter, and they run about the same lap times regardless of spring rates, gearing, geometry, etc...then they aren't going fast enough, or pushing the bike hard enough for their opinions to be valid anyway.

At best, the only logical conclusion they could draw is something like "If you prefer ___ engine layout, want to use stock gearing, will only ride on the Donnington Short Course, weigh 158-165lbs, don't trail brake very hard, don't like to countersteer very hard, prefer straight line stability over quick turn-in, and run a pace of 1:xx, then the _____ is probably the best bike for you".

 

I was at my local BMW dealer today and he said the one they got in and sold is having 'problems' and is supposed to get more but they have stopped shipping them. He's fearing its something fairly significant going on in the motor and I got the feeling its something with the gearbox? They sell a ton of these things and they have all of the new ones sold so he's pretty annoyed with it.

 

Could you be more specific, please?

 

Good question best for who. You know it's funny, whenever the latest and greatest comes out it gets glowing reviews, then like after a year and everyone has ridden the thing, you hear about the negatives.

 

There was an issue with a milling machine for engine cases at the factory that affected 1/3 of the european units, as there are three milling machines. Apparently, some of the cases where not milled deep enough which lead to oil circulation issues. Those are being corrected and the factory is also in the process of retooling. There is a BMW press release on this. The press release also mentions some supply chain issues that they are working on. The american units were not affected, as only 189 bikes came to america. These bikes were made in April and the milling issues did not start until the first week of May. They are fixing the european bikes and then will start shipping US bikes again. As to issues with the US bikes, I have not heard of any significant issues with the exception of a faulty fuel gauge and one issue with a carbon rim. No engine issues have been discussed. Anyways, 3 years, 36,000 mile warranty. I have no concerns.

 

Broome is back

 

That used to be the case. Now it's just under a 4kg difference from the V4S to the new Ape 1100. 9lbs all down low in the engine mostly - not exactly the old 36lb weight difference from the 1299 and the 1000cc 2018 back RSV.

I know you might claim things like "it's more about rotational mass, firing orders, etc.." but just pointing out it's actually a very similar wet weight for both bikes now IMO.

 

So in conclusion, the new BMW is the best bike out of the box without making things complicated as the Gorilla is doing .

Tires is the biggest factor. That's why they change them. Everything else is as-is like you got it from the dealership. And we must have some confidence that these guys know a little about what they're talking about and can do basic bike setup.

 

I go with what is most comfortable for me and start from there.

GSX-R, please.

 

That’s interesting. I loved the motor in my Ape, but damn it was heavy. The chassis had remain unchanged from the beginning.

I had heard they were coming out with an “all new” RSV4, but I haven’t read up on the new one.

 

While I don’t know if the ergos have changed on the new one or not, but if you are comfortable on the GSXR1K, then you should be comfortable on the BMW.

They used the 2005 GSXR as the base model for creating the S1000RR. I played on a 2010 model and it felt exactly like my 06 GSXR.

I loved it. It actually felt “at home” to me. I immediately felt comfortable...but those damn lights.

Now that they are gone, I might have to get one.

Do they come in black?

 

I'm on a GSXR 639 so nothing big for me right now. I may go back to 1000s in a couple of seasons.

 

I think he likes it.

 

I seen that. That was like the longest BMW commercial ever...

 

I did some reading up on the new RSV4 and from what I gather, the small changes they made wont make a difference in race trim.

The thing with the RSV4 is that it doesn’t get much lighter in race trim. That motor is compact, but heavy. The bigass, thick frame and swingarm look cool, but they are super heavy.

To make up for that, they made the OEM bodywork as light as possible, made the subframe and tail section almost nonexistent, etc.

The problem is that because they made the street stuff so light, it doesn’t lose a lot of weight in race trim. Other bikes can drop a ton of weight, the Ape doesn’t.

My biggest complaint with the previous model wasn’t just the wet weight of the street bike, it was that in race trim there is a drastic difference between it and the Panigale (or any of the others). Something like 60lbs, because race prepping the Ape doesn’t shave a lot of weight.

When they talked about changes to the Ape, I was hoping they meant an all-new bike. In the time the Ape has essentially remained unchanged aside from updates here and there, we gotten 3 new Panigales, a new R1, 3 new ZX10s, 2 new BMWs, and even all new bikes from Honda and Suzuki.

But from what I gather, the frame, swingarm, etc are unchanged. They lightened the OEM exhaust, and changed to a Li battery. Sure, those things made the wet weight of the street bike look better, but those things get replaced when race prepping it anyway. So the net result is that a race prepped 2019 RSV4 will essentially weigh the same as a 2010 RSV4.

They didn’t come out with an all-new from the ground-up bike, they just made another update.

 

Can't say I disagree with anything you've said and I defer to your knowledge especially re: building a race bike from a Duc...

 

Yup, she's quick.

 

The Beemer is a complete dog (for a 200hp bike) under 8-9k, then it's like hitting a switch...it's the electronics doing the power kill.
After 9k, there's an annoyingly accompanying buzz. You have to ride it like a 600 (over 9k) to get it to go/do anything racey, then it numbs your hands.

The carbon wheels on the M Pkg are $6700/set and fragile. Any sharp impact (backside of a gator strip, moto on rim impacting terrain, bike-slammin' and tumbling crash, etc...) and your wheels no longer hold air. In fact, the impact location on the wheel will look like a sledgehammer hit plywood...and the sledge need not be a 16-pounder.

YMMV