Another Boeing 737 Max-8 crash

So it's the stockholder's fault, cuz they want dividends. Anybody here own stock in Boing?

 

It's an industry that documents the bejesus out of
everything so not having anything on the work done
before the door plug fell off should raise a lot of questions.

 

If they do they should be selling it!

 

Yup.

No way, this is a buy opportunity. BA is going anywhere, they are one of a very small group that builds large airplanes for public air travel. They also get mega contracts from the .gov. Heard of 'too big to fail?'... yeah they'll be around.

 

I guess I don’t understand the safety angle. How are people defining safety? If it means - how likely am I to die? - then Boeing’s safety record is BREATHTAKING. If you made a list of man made devices that have killed people in the last twenty years, Boeing wouldn’t be anywhere near the top. Is the whole thing sensational because it is an airplane and not a forklift or whatever? We are killing about a wide body airliner’s worth of people in cars every 3 days. Everyone seems to accept that.

The only reason I care is that I sometimes think we are being told what to be scared of while something really scary goes unnoticed.

 

Agreed, they aren't going to fail, but their stock price probably is going to go down a bit (a lot?) before it goes back up.

 

You keep talking like this and get popular...you may end up committing "Suicide".....

 

To be sure, yes all of the above is certainly true.

It's not so much about being told what to be scared about. All of the hubbub that's been on the "news" for the last several years didn't slow down my typical air travel cadence one iota. But at the same time, shouldn't attention be given to legitimate shortcomings in manufacturing and Q&A processes if they exist. I mean are you suggesting that what the whistleblowers are saying is groundless or simply that even if it is true just don't bother paying it any mind.

Obviously in the case of the 737 MAX there were some egregious design flaws, like the single point of failure with the AOA sensor. Sure they could be overridden by a competent pilot if they knew what to be wary of should the single sensor fail, but you could also engineer a plane that doesn't have that single point of failure as well....which they eventually did after 2 planes crashed.

 

I keep thinking of this:

 

I’m suggesting a few things.
-The situation is nuanced and playing it out in public doesn’t benefit anyone.
-Everyone needs to be careful about giving credence to a disgruntled employee “whistleblower”.
-Boeing produces an extremely safe product.

I also don’t think there are “egregious design flaws”. I’m an ATP rated pilot, but have never flown an airliner. I am almost positive I wouldn’t fight the trim for OVER 5 MINUTES. That would feel like a lifetime! I have had real life autotrim failures in a high tech airplane and it only took a few seconds for me to freak out. I’m firmly of the opinion that if you allow a 400 hour pilot to fly a jet airliner, you kinda deserve whatever happens. I haven’t followed all of this very closely after the first few months, do we even know that the Ethiopian crash was MCAS related? Last I knew, we couldn’t reliably say that there were 2 crashes.

 

I think there’s been a misunderstanding. I meant to say - I agree with everything on CNN.

 

I'm in agreement with you that inexperienced or not sufficiently trained pilots are often at the root of many of these problems. I've watched a ton of those "airline disaster" shows that determined pilot error to be the cause of many of them.

As I understood it, both the Ethiopian and Lion Air 737 Max crashes were determined to be MCAS related.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Airlines_Flight_302

Final report
On 23 December 2022, the ECAA released the final report in the crash, which stated:[11]

Repetitive and uncommanded airplane-nose-down inputs from the MCAS due to erroneous AOA input, and its unrecoverable activation system which made the airplane dive with the rate of -33,000 ft/min [−170 m/s] close to the ground was the most probable cause of the accident.

On 27 December 2022, the NTSB released its comments on the accident separately from the final report, saying that the Ethiopian authorities failed to include them in or append them to their report.[81] The NTSB's comments read in part:[16]

Overall, the US team concurs with the EAIB's investigation of the MCAS and related systems and the roles that they played in the accident. However, many operational and human performance issues present in this accident were not fully developed as part of the EAIB investigation. These issues include flight crew performance, crew resource management (CRM), task management, and human-machine interface. It is important for the EAIB's final report to provide a thorough discussion of these relevant issues so that all possible safety lessons can be learned.

The NTSB further detailed:[16]

Appropriate crew management of the event, per the procedures that existed at the time, would have allowed the crew to recover the airplane even when faced with the uncommanded nose-down inputs.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Air_Flight_610

Final report
The NTSC released its final report into the accident on 25 October 2019.[148] The report listed nine "Contributing Factors":

Contributing factors [are] define[d] as actions, omissions, events, conditions, or a combination thereof, which, if eliminated, avoided or absent, would have reduced the probability of the accident or incident occurring, or mitigated the severity of the consequences of the accident or incident. The presentation is based on chronological order and not to show the degree of contribution.

1. During the design and certification of the Boeing 737-8 (MAX), assumptions were made about flight-crew response to malfunctions that, even though consistent with current industry guidelines, turned out to be incorrect.

2. Based on the incorrect assumptions about flight-crew response and an incomplete review of associated multiple flight deck effects, MCAS's reliance on a single sensor was deemed appropriate and met all certification requirements.

3. MCAS was designed to rely on a single AoA sensor, making it vulnerable to erroneous input from that sensor.

4. The absence of guidance on MCAS or more detailed use of trim in the flight manuals and in-flight crew training, made it more difficult for flight crews to properly respond to uncommanded MCAS.

5. The AoA DISAGREE alert was not correctly enabled during Boeing 737-8 (MAX) development. As a result, it did not appear during flight with the miscalibrated AoA sensor, could not be documented by the flight crew, and was therefore not available to help maintenance identify the miscalibrated AoA sensor.

6. The replacement AoA sensor that was installed on the accident aircraft had been miscalibrated during an earlier repair. This miscalibration was not detected during the repair.

7. The investigation could not determine that the installation test of the AoA sensor was performed properly. The miscalibration was not detected.

8. Lack of documentation in the aircraft flight and maintenance log about the continuous stick shaker and use of the runaway stabilizer NNC meant that information was not available to the maintenance crew in Jakarta, nor was it available to the accident crew, making it more difficult for each to take the appropriate actions.

9. The multiple alerts, repetitive MCAS activations, and distractions related to numerous ATC communications were not able to be effectively managed. This was caused by the difficulty of the situation and performance in manual handling, NNC execution, and flight-crew communication, leading to ineffective CRM application and workload management. These performances had previously been identified during training and reappeared during the accident flight.

— Source: Komite Nasional Keselamatan Transportasi (KNKT; English: NTSC), "Aircraft Accident Investigation Report"[14] (Abbreviations: ATC = Air Traffic Control; NNC = Non-Normal Checklists; CRM = Crew Resource Management)
The report stated that 31 pages were missing from the airplane's logbook. The NTSC recommended that Lion Air improve the duration and content of its safety management system training, including the identification of equipment hazards, such as the continuous stick shaker and trim runaway, which the pilot on the previous flight did not report. The Indonesian Directorate General of Civil Aviation was urged to improve its oversight of airlines and maintenance organizations.[149][150]

 

Again, I am not up to speed on this but I think you copied the part people object to. All of the Ethiopian data is coming from their agency. They apparently did not cooperate with the FAA, EASA or even Boeing. For that reason the information was considered suspect. Especially when the Ethiopian officials made obviously untrue statements about maintenance, training, etc.

It likely was trim related, but it’s hard to be sure when you’re dealing with a lying third world government.

 

Is it easier to be sure when dealing with a lying 1st or 2nd world government?

 

Bwahaaahaaa!

Funny! Steve thats a real knee slapper!

 

The NTSB further detailed:[16]

Appropriate crew management of the event, per the procedures that existed at the time, would have allowed the crew to recover the airplane even when faced with the uncommanded nose-down inputs.

You can design the crap out of anything, that will not stop people with limited experience and training from flying into the ground.

Check out the Pakistani Airbus crash in 2021 and get back to me.

DEADLY Attitude! The Truly Shocking story of Pakistan Airlines 8303

 

Imma go out on a limb and say that flying some big ass aluminimum toob into the ground is prolly not that difficult…

 

I fly the 737 for a living. I’ve been through the mcas situation in the sim with the exact same circumstances.

The fact they crashed is embarrassing. I walked out of the sim and asked the instructor. “That’s it? That’s what all those people died from?” Yup

Did the plane do them any favors? No. But they absolutely did not belong in the front of that plane crashing from that.

every single 737 typed pilot in the world knows the runaway trim procedure. It’s fast, it’s easy. Even a 20 seconds of that trim spinning would seem like a lifetime.

flying garbage that wants to kill you before jumping into airlines is unfortunately a missing part of pilots education in other parts of the world. You either learn to survive or get weeded out.

I had a check pilot that is part of the Boeing safety commission. He said the Ethiopian pilots gave up and started praying. The government would not let that get released.

You fly till you die. Always.

 

Sheet...your supposed to fly thru the impact at least, and after that if its really hot, well then you can take your feet of the rudder pedals.

 

W

We have US pilots flying for the majors who gets the stick shakers on go arounds, or simple TCAS RA maneuvers, just sayin….