Red Flag Rules

I've done hundreds of burnouts, without damaging the surface. I would never intentionally do damage to a track. I was told there would be a fine. I told Paul "Ok, no problem" Evelyn to me it should be about $50. I was prepared to pay $100. He can over acting like a total asshole, and told me $250.He said that if I did not want to pay, it was not a problem, but I could not return until I did.When I asked why $250, he said it was punitive damage, and that he had no plans of repairing the surface.
Wizard was on the concrete, and did no damage at all.The punishment does not fit the crime!

 

Gary, perhaps you should look into Dragracing, they do burnouts and don't get into trouble for it...
If you put alittle liquid down and move alittle it does NO damage on asphalt or all the dragstrips would be shitholes.
Concrete is made to do burnouts on.

 

just to clear things up...we just switched to pirelli's last seson, prior to that we ran Michelin's. and in all the years we ran michelin's ( with VCR and SBR) We have never crashed on the restart of a red flag or ever that i can remember due to the cause of cold tires. up untill about 3 years ago we NEVER used tire warmers. Like Mongo said he would have to hire alot more officials for pit road to supervise because things would happen, like it or not.
this is when the whole common sense thing sets in...i guess it's not so common to everyone?

 

Yeah! What he said!

 

What about the teams that don't have warmers???

 

uh, no. i won't take it from anybody, regardless of their credentials, that bases real world results on academics. show me conclusive evidence and back it up with the parameters you set for the testing. michelin might be able to do it in a lab. uab? don't think so.

 

guess what...even if it takes 2 or 3 laps...so what? it's a endurence race... the goal is to finish, not to crash. think of it this way...everyone has to start the race on the same cold tires so that means that everyone else is going a slower pace too for the first lap or 2 so there isn't really and disadvantage to anyone....
ride smart = finishing the race... ride stupid and try to set a track record on cold tires = you riding in the crash truck back to the pits for being stupid.

 

thats how i feel we all start cold, if we used warmers some teams may not have generators bla bla bla blee blee blee

 

In my opinion, it's simply a safety issue. How many of the crashes would've been avoided with the use of tire warmers? Hmm, something that will cause there to be fewer crashes, thus fewer red flags and injuries with no real downside. Yeah, doesn't sound like a good idea to me(sarcasm). Yes, it's definitely partly the riders fault, but I personally don't make it a habit to go out and practice on cold tires so I know how quickly they'll warm up. That's ridiculous. They're simply not designed to be ridden cold, much less raced on. I led the entire first stint of the endurance race over Vesrah then crashed on cold tires on the first lap after the red flag. Point being, I'm not an inexperienced rider. Just wait until Talladega when we'll get a grand total of 1 minute to warm up our tires after a red flag.

 

mongo im thinking if the track didnt have so many turns we would not fall

 

Pay attention, my post wasn't talking about the causes of the red flags. It was about a way to have fewer crashes in the first couple laps of a race due in part to the no warmer rule. Yeah, I noticed that my crash didn't cause a red flag, thanks for your insight on that.

 

No reason to get all huffy about it, you should do some research so you understand what you are arguing about though - because you are mistaken. And FYI: 1) Michelin, Pirelli, Dunlop, etc. CAN do this in the lab, and have shown it, I can bring academic journals and textbooks to prove it - the same ones that your tire engineers use when designing what you ride on everyday, and in most cases have written after millions of dollars and hundreds of hours worth of research on these things. 2) Basing real world results on "academics" (by wich I'm sure you mean mathematics) is an almost perfect science (thank you Einstein, Newton, etc.), this is what engineers are doing to design everything you use - from your toothbrush up to the things you trust your life to everyday and don't even think about. 3) You seem to be down on UAB so just so you know, we have one of the best Advanced Materials Research facilities in the country. The composite materials laboratory is pursuing research in innovative materials development and manufacturing of advanced materials for different applications in the military, transportation, civil, automotive and aerospace fields. These activities are supported by a number of projects and collaborations with the National composites Center in Dayton (Ohio), the Army Research Laboratory (ARL), the Federal Transit Authority (FTA), and private business partners in the composites area.

So... yes we have the capability to perform such an experiment, though I have not myself done so, it is unnecessary - I can trust research done by PhD. Engineers and Physicists at other laboratories. Tire temperature IS the main factor in cold tear, though you are correct that it is not the whole story.

Incase you want a more precise acount of what is happening I will include that below the polymeric rubber glass transition temperature (when the tires are cold), the material does not behave in an elastic manner. In this temperature range, the rubber is brittle thereby much more likely to undergo failure under high stress loading (according to linear elastic fracture mechanics). This has nothing to do with tire pressure, which follows the ideal gas law, Pv=nRT. That simply relates the relative increase in tire pressure with the associated temperature and does not dictate the manner with which the material would fail.


Just trying to help you understand your equipment better.:up:

 

i appreciate your efforts but they are misguided.

i'll grant you this much...cold tear may point to poor warm-up procedures. notice the words "warm-up"...inferring heat. this is most likely how the condition got its name as people assume the tire is cold. i assure you, they are not cold when this symptom presents itself.
the only way to duplicate it with a cold tire is in the lab...no where near real world practice.
the bottom line is poor suspension settings and/or improper inflation are what cause it.
i don't need a doctorate or millions in research to duplicate it...nor does anyone else that has suffered from it. all they need is a proper set-up and the condition disappears.
if you, or anyone else, can duplicate this symptom on cold tires i'll buy you a set. so, how many laps is it gonna take? can it be done in one lap? in the real world, that tire will no longer be cold.

just so ya know where i'm coming from...i did say,
"okay. time to stir the pot..."
:up:

 

I just want to be clear on what you are saying.

I have never setup a bike or seen a bike setup to be used on "cold" tires. As you know tires will go up in PSI when the get up to temp. That PSI is what the tire is designed to work at so if you start on "cold" tires they will be at the wrong pressure. "Cold tear" will happen even if the bike is setup perfectly for the correct PSI and operating temp of the tire if you go out and run them with the pressure and temp low.

So are you saying that the above is not true or doesn't happen or that the effect that 1 or 2 laps below the tires optimum temp and pressure don't cause any problems to the tires?

 

hmm... by cold here, I'm talking about under operating temp. not cold cold...
I see we are arguing apples to oranges.
True proper pressure and suspension settings can help... why? because proper pressure allows a tire to run at the proper temperature (and get to that temperature more quickly), and good suspension prevents any hopping or jolty (is that how you spell that?) movements on the tire, which would worsen the condition by providing much higher stresses during the high cohesion periods in between hops. The term "cold tear" was coined by tire engineers, not presumptuous racers. It is often duplicated out of the lab - go check out the stacks used of tires by the vendors next race.

Yeah, i saw your pot stirring intentions - thought I'd bite - after all it is not to often I get to talk about something I actually know something about.

You serious about that set of tires?

 

Sounds to me like an EVIL conveyor belt!

 

Will that help warm the tires???