Man, so many posts and so little time to respond. Most people are just here to argue so I have no interest in responding to those, this is the beeb so everyone loves to argue. I think the biggest difference here is the difference between abuse and bad parenting/ tough love. My dad still yells at me when I crash, thats just tough love. When Xavier crashed in warm up lap, he got some tough love/ bad parenting. Then it turned out he hit someone and the dad more of went the bad parenting way, not abuse. Maybe if Bill and John had not been there, there would have been abuse but no one knows what the dad was about to do and I highly doubt it. As for the other incident in question, as John said the first time, he whacked his daughter. While not appropriate, it's again not abuse. Dragging her to the car, again hard pressed to call abuse. If he was braking her wrist in doing so then definitely abuse, but have yet to hear thats what happened. John what you've said the father has done has changed many times over this argument. Originally whacked, then slapped, hit, etc. Don't misrepresent what happened as every other term used has an entirely different meaning. But this is getting rediculous now, the beeb has decided what they think so you all can go die in a fire =)
Wes, if you are urging moderation until the facts are in, then that's certainly fair enough. But what you seem to be doing is making a case for something called "bad parenting." Why not spell it out so your position is understood? Where-and how-do you draw the line between physical and emotional abuse, and your 'bad parenting' theme? And yes, yes indeed we argue these types of things, among others, here on the beeb, isn't that great that we are afforded this opportunity to communicate? Please don't be so narrow-minded and walled off to the thoughts and expressions of others that you would wish harm upon people. None of the people here intend to die in any fires, I can assure you, and you won't win over any friends by those words. Regarding the words and actions of John Ulrich, it seems you don't want to see or understand his concerns; somehow you miss the 'big picture' even though he spelled it out very clearly. He happens to know a few things about motorcycle racing and the people involved in it, and his effort in this matter at hand is to bring about a greater good from a sad situation.
I'm really sorry to hear that... and no it isn't. I hope you are able to make that distinction when you are a parent.
Wes, I'm not here to argue, it is obvious that you have your opinion, but at 21yrs of age, (I'm assuming this is correct), as a father of 2 of my own and 1 step son, I truly don't think you have any experience or relevant basis to make any statements on parenting, period. In my eyes your still a kid, my step son is 21.
In my eyes, I'm still a kid too, The Government doesn't see it that way. Charles, die in a fire is more of a joke around here... And yes it is travis, who the hell are you to ever question my parents love for me?!
"no it isnt" in regards to tough love. He is either questioning their love or saying my father is abusive, either way he needs to keep that shit to himself.
Yelling at a kid when they crash isn't tough love, it is stupid. Tough love is taking action your want more than anything to avoid to keep a kid from destroying thier life. There is a huge difference.
I think we are over looking the saddest part of this whole thing, people like Wes can get on a sport bike and race next to you at a race track at high speeds. Any way we can ban people like him from the track? :up:
You bring your shit on here and then get upset when people comment on it. GMAFB. If your Dad hits you for crashing at any age, much less 21, you have one f-ed up relationship, period.
Hahahaha, Good point! Because my opinion clearly effects my ability to ride. Good thing I don't even dare venture into the dungeon... And Charles, your post is largely inacurate and has missed the point of many previous posts. I have throughout this whole ordeal urged moderation as well as defended the father to people who apparently think simply yelling is abuse. Drawing a line is situational, like what do you want me to say? Whacking in a mean hurtful way is not okay, but whacking in a normal way is okay? In regards to getting the big picture, what big picture, I'm defending a father from those calling him criminal. If John continues on to create a code of conduct, that's great and I'm all for it to hopefully stop future abuse of any child.
What I would like you to say, if you can stop for a while and think about it, is to tell me where you draw the line between what you call 'bad parenting' and abusive behavior. Whatever 'situation' you choose is fine with me. Put your cards on the table. You seem to have understood the 'big picture'; it is exactly what JU outlines and his proposal to remedy the situation (you call it a 'code of conduct').
John called it code of conduct. You clearly haven't read the thread. I don't care to discuss parenting with you, thats not what this thread is about. Start a new thread if you want, make it a poll for all I care.
Yea, you're right, I have a hard time reading, not sure if I even see all the words, grew up as a poor sharecropper, we only had Mad magazines and no light bulbs to see with, it was all work work work out in the fields and grits grits grits for each meal. I don't wish to discuss parenting with you either. So there! As long as that's not what this thread is about, why should we even go down that road? And I don't want to start any new threads and you can't make me either. Okay, I gotta get back to work now, the chickens flew out of the coop, and some people are out back in the lower forty burning them strange books again...
So... um... Does anyone have any update on Xavier? Is he doing ok? Does he plan on riding/not riding from here on out?
Charles, Wes will be unable to answer your question, because there is no answer. It is like trying to divide by zero. There is no line between "bad parenting" and abuse. They are just points on the continuum of abuse. People choose at what point to step in, but regardless, it is all abusive from one degree or another. As an educator, I am required by law to report any instances of abuse and/or neglect, of which I become aware. If this had happened in my school and I had witnessed what John saw at Indy or what was witnessed at the track day, I would have reported the father to Child Services or the police. The laws state that if I suspect abuse I need to report. Based on these accounts, I suspect abuse. The key here is suspect, not proven. I would not continue trying to engage Wes in this discussion any longer. He has made his position perfectly clear and has yet to find anybody else to agree with his perspective on this. He is not experienced enough in life, racing, or parenting to have any other perspective. His loyalty to his friends has not yet been tempered by the reality of what people are actually capable. My hope is that as he continues to associate with this family that he will be observant of what is actually happening and will have the courage to do what is right, if needed, to protect children. While I continue to hope that no parent wants to be bad or abusive, I have had to notify the authorities too many times to ignore the realities of the world. I applaud and sympathize with John in these circumstances. Perhaps we can all be more attentive at the track in the future and help each other to be good sports and parents at the track. Abusing a child is never OK. Ken
