It was either second or third session. That is EXACTLY what he was doing. Guiding them around the track at a completely appropriate time. He had our 6th or 7th group. He had the complete noobs. He had the guys and gals I spoke of. The ones who this is their first time on a racetrack, ever. The ones who are pretty much doing nothing but following him around the track, and are the ones who most often forget what to do when shit goes downhill during a session. He had the group that needs the most coach attention.
I truly think this whole CW on the track is a moot point, it's obviously a necessary evil at times and part of the job a CW has to do. Knowing that Andy did his job exactly as he should have, that's not the "real" reason this thread was started....it was started cuz someone got their feathers ruffled that STT got banned from GSB and wanted to throw a little poo poo in the fan here on the beebs. The real root cause to all of this rests in the question below!
You're kind of neglecting my point. Whether he was guiding them around or whatever, it is essentially pointless for this particular situation. All the control rider COULD DO is watch, theres absolutely nothing he could do to prevent one of the riders at that point in time. If one of those riders muffed up it would be corner worker's responsibility not the control rider's to handle the situation. Watching behind you to see what the riders are doing is not GUIDING anyone. Me standing at the top of the hill POINTING where to go is guiding you where to go. I'm not riding the guy's ass nor am I pissed off at the guy, I've been nearly grazed a couple times it's nothing new. But don't sit there and try to tell me that he was completely in the right because he wasn't. I could see where every bike was going to be from the top of turn 9 all the way to me, where as he obviously was not looking in front of him so he couldn't even see where he was going! The only thing that I can say that has been stated correctly in this whole thread really is that THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN A YELLOW FLAG, but even if there wasn't, ALL eyes need to be to the front. If you haven't seen where the incident is yet you and everyone else need to be on the look out, not trying to watch what's going on behind you because there's OBVIOUSLY nothing there since you're already passed it! For all you know someone could have just crashed in front of you and if you can't see it how are you going to avoid it?
Pete this thread was started because of me putting two and two together. I saw the post on GSB and thought all this was going on because of what happened at Road Atlanta. And since I was the instructor in question I wanted honest replies to my question. I didn't start it for it to be a feud. I have no idea of the dealings between Monte and Todd or Andy. I didn't know it was Andy that was on the track. I am not mad at either one of them. I have been on the track at least 15 weekends a year for the last three years. I had never been in a situation like this one before. I bitched at the track that day not to start a fight but just to voice my opinion on someone being on the track. Not just because I could have been hurt but I could have hurt someone. My number one concern at any track is safety and mostly the safety of who I am instructing. At every track event I have ever been to there has always been a red flag waived when someone crashes and then a red and a yellow waived at the site of the crash. All I saw was the red before 10a. So I knew I was going to pit in. I got through the curves and looked back to see if my riders(all had never been on a track to the best of my recollection) had there hands up and were following me. Anyone that instructs knows that when you look back you tend to sway to the left usually. I tend for some unknown reason sway to the right some. When I turned back around I saw Andy waiving me over. No matter what has happened in this thread my question was not to bash Todd or Andy. I wanted info from other people on the situation at Atlanta. Monte didn't ask me to start this thread or anyone else as far as that goes. He is certainly capable of handling his own affairs. And I retract my statement of not seeing a CW on the track. I have seen CW's at pit out waving a black flag at someone who has blown the checker.
You act as if it is new news to you that control riders/coaches/ instructors look back FREQUENTLY to lead their students, and coach them. You have done several STT events I would think this would not be new news. First three sessions of the day is lead follow. Coach controls pace. Coach looks back to make sure group is doing as it should. How is that surprising to you? very few schools that I know of have mirrors for their coaches/instructors/CRs, so how do you set a pace, but not leave a group, and show them where to go and make sure they do it, without looking back? If Jimmy looked back and saw a student blasting by him, he could motion that student to get back in line. If he looked back and saw students making passes under the red, he could correct that issue later. If he looked back and saw any number of things he could correct them right then or after the incident. His JOB was to teach students the proper way to do things on the track, and observe to see if they did or not, just as you stated. To do so he has to observe what his students are doing. I say again, I dont think HE did anything wrong. I dont think YOU did anything wrong. I think the situation as a whole could be handled better/safer though. I have never pointed fingers in this thread. I think it is a good way to learn what we as a whole (riders, CRs, CWs, orgs) can maybe do differently in the future.
If he was looking behind instead of ahead knowing there was something going on in the track in front of him, the CR did something wrong. Period. What is he going to do if a student does blast by him? Veer over and grab his bike? There is NOTHING he can do at the moment. Zero. His responsibility was to watch ahead at that point to get around an incident. When HE veered the wrong way, that set the line for the students to veer the wrong way, also. So yes, the CR was wrong on this.
By the way, by your own description of teaching, he was teaching his students to look all around instead of at the track ahead to watch for the incident. Sorry to split hairs, but this is the case.
If a student goes by, and he hand motions to them, they typically stop. We will have to disagree on this. I dont think he did anything wrong, with the information given to him, and what I know of where the incident was, the weather, the lack of flags, how early the session was, and how green his students were. I dont think Andy was wrong either. But the situation was all wrong.
Was he looking behind instead of ahead before seeing where the incident was on the track? And did he veer as a result of looking behind? Did that set the right precedent for the students? I guess we will disagree on this.
Yea, you are trying to be argumentative towards our ways again. He was NOT teaching them to look around, when in the classroom we STRESS that there are two times it is OK to look over your shoulder on a race track. One of them is when going down the blend line onto the track. the other is when entering pit road from cold pit. We STRESS that it takes us a long time to be able to look back, and even then we still are not infallible, and it is not something that is natural and that they should do at any time, for any reason. we also have a "no passing instructors on the right" rule as well, because just like anything else on a bike you tend to go where you look. When looking back, we are blind on our right side, and tend to veer right slightly (it is not like he traversed half the track like you are making it out to be either). We know it happens. We know it is possible. We take measures to make it as controlled and safe as possible. So, you are incorrect.
Dang. First off thanks for your replies. A red flag only tells riders that there is a crash or something on the track. It does not tell you where. That is what a yellow and red flag being used at the same time is for. THAT tells you that you are approaching whatever the problem is. Those two flags weren't displayed. And there was no way of knowing it was in front of me because all that was in front of me was pit out and no flag. My session was toast. I was at the end of the track. So the theory of it being in front of me is not necessarily true. The crash was on the race line coming over the hill and I was pitting in. Two very different lines. Like I said I am not blaming Andy by no means.
Jimbo, I do understand your sincere interest in finding out people’s opinions on this matter, but this whole issue would have never come up unless the whole GSB banning didn't happen. One of your colleagues thought this specific issue was the reason behind Andy being called out by Monte, it wasn't. Again, the root cause to this lies in Mongo's post....
