Automatic Citizenship Question

One major issue that I have with immigrants these days is that few are coming to the US to be American. Few that are seeking US Naturalization have motives other than access to benefits.

Speak to immigrants, people born elsewhere and let them speak freely if you want to know how they really feel.

To this day, I am still surprised at the level of Anti-American (Anti-Imperialism) I enconter in my profession. I rarely come across Engineers that went to HS in the US, fewer that are US born (Civil/Geotechnical) though most Naturalized attended graduate school in the US.

Our Senior Staff 3/2 (US born/Naturalized), Junior Staff 3/4(1)

(1) I am the odd ball. Yet to be Naturalized.

 

Thank you for your perspective from years past.

I was not a voter for most of my life. I was too busy, and, as long as I was left alone, I didn't have much to complain about nor enough time to look at the issues. I was too busy trying to figure out my little business, racing, and so on.

I think it starts to impact one more as they become a property owner. Then more again with children. Becomes apparent, to me at least, how inept the systems are. Claims of what they do, but the actions that happen are often lame, poor, and dangerous.

I don't think I had a good education from school on why I should be involved, and I don't believe my parents gave me a good education from them on what I could do. But they weren't politically active, so they weren't moving to change those things. My father, as I've said many times, would always vote against the incumbent as they were all crooks...LOL! Which isn't a bad philosophy. Now, I've had to go through and get caught up, but I'm bringing my kids along for that ride.

Regardless, generation of apathy is the intent of some political ideologies. Some will resign themselves to the whims of government rather than rising up against it, either vocally, politically, or further. The apathy is good for continually developing more government programs that continue to fail which then just need more funding.

 

I'll add Idolatry right up there with Greed! This is also an answer for the other thread about the age of Congressman.

 

Why?

 

I was adding to Orvis's statement:

"To me, most of what happens in Washington is driven by that one thing that can't be stamped out. Greed. I agree that those politicians that have stronger moral character should stand up and demand that the crooked, and slightly crooked, politicians leave public service."

I believe Greed is accompanied by Idolatry. Other wise if you didn't Idolize yourself...why would you have the need to be Greedy!

 

They can - do it legally!!

 

Lets amend the constitution then - who wants to start the petition?!:up:

 

Is it necessary?

Stop giving away the work and money of individuals that made that money. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It's not work for yourself part of the time, and the rest is taken from you at the end of a gun to be given to others based on "good politics".

That is the problem. Return the republic to that, and a whole host of problems will be magically cured.

 

Idolize yourself? Don't understand what you're saying.

Either way, why would you want government to control "greed", what ever that is objectively defined as, which I would have you try to define.

I would state that the problem that you're equating as "greed" is the nature of our limited government not following its limitations.

 

If the parents are here legally does the opinion of automatic citizenship change?

 

Good question.

I would say yes.

What is citizenship? Ability to vote, ability to run for public office...

 

The reason I asked is that my guess would be that the framers of the Constitution had no intention in illegal aliens being here in the first place therefore it wasn't their intention to make the children of illegals automatic citizens.

 

I think your missing my point...to be quite honest I can't figure out why.

If you Idolize yourself, then you feel everything should be done for your purpose. That in itself brings Greed.

That is a bit off topic of Citzenship.
One could ask...are we begin Greedy by not allowing in illegals! I am torn on it to be honest. One side of me says:
They should become legals the right away, as the law states.
other side:
They are likely coming here for a better life, and we should be compassionate people and do what we can to help them.

To comment on what you stated. I think your partly right. However, I believe the bigger part of the individual Greed of our politicians is...what do I vote on that best suits ME, so that I can retain my position in this office. Instead, they should be saying...what is best for my/our Nation regardless of whether or not I'll be re-elected for opposing the crooks.

 

Well, that is a question that I don't have an answer to.

If we agree that the framers constructed the Constitution to protect the rights of individuals from government, then what constitutes a "citizen" is quite open.

I might say that "illegal" would only constitute a person that poses an actual threat to the nation and its individuals. From there, all individuals are able to trade their work and services.

Thoughts or context on framers and illegals?

 

You believe that an individual man's self interest should not be in himself? A man's purpose is himself and what he values.

Or do you believe in that man should sacrifice himself altruistically for the good of others? A man's purpose has no relationship to his well being and that he should provide his work to others, the state, etc.

Can you define to another man what he should or should not have? Is that a moral and just form of government?

Yeah, I agree, we're a bit off, but...

Who's "we" in compassionate "people"? I can do that by myself. I don't require a government to take my money to be compassionate.

Additionally, shouldn't a business be able to hire individuals that can do the jobs they require for their services and products at the price agreed upon by the worker and the employer?

Their better life is their self interest. It is not in mine unless they appeal to my individual compassion or values. If one hires them or offers them charity, that's reasonable accountability. Again, to pull from James Madision, "Charity is not the legislative duty of government." Government has not been accountable to their forced charities...failure.

Freedom is help in itself.

Agreed. They have been allowed to be rulers, they even call themselves "law makers", when they are supposed to be representatives of the people while protecting the US Constitution.

Term limits might be a great opportunity to keep some focused on the task of being a representative.

 

IMHO, the framers were not worried about illegals. They had an entire continent to settle and much of it would be by force. They would have simply put newer immigrants to work and moved on. There were no giveaway programs to worry about.

 

What are their motives?

 

Agreed, no give away programs to worry about.

Maybe it should be stated that they generated limitations that would not allow that to happen to preserve the right of the individual to make their own enlightened, rational decision on who to be charitable to...or not. And that's where our government has failed us in not protecting the rights of citizens from government.


As for taking the continent by force, I don't think that was a universal concept that everyone had. Opens up a whole new discussion though...

 

I think the last part has put us on the same page finally! If you believe the last statement you made, then you have more or less answered the question that you asked me.
Do I think the Govt. should tell me how to do that...NO. That is where the churches need to step in. IMO NOW is the time for the churches to speak! Even a person who does not believe, WANTS to be a good person and without knowing they do it...live by the same laws that God gave. Yet they will fight against the very thing they don't believe in.
Should a company be able to hire a person to do a job they need done. Sure! Should they be required to do it based on what the law states? Absolutely!

I think one of the biggest problems in our Govt. is they are making up so many laws as they go along, that if they stop and take note...they really only need to amend most of the ones we have. However, this Nation is in such a mess right now...that it will take a revival to put it back on track. IMO all of Govt. needs a good house cleaning from top to bottom. Right now, our Govt. reminds me of that show on TV that shows people who "hoard" to the point where they can't find anything they are looking for. They have lost VISION!

 

Well, do churches have establishments of individual rights? Or are members asked to follow often subjective rules?

What if one doesn't believe in someone else's God? Is one required to join a religion?

Finally, being a member of a religion or church is not an exclusive indicator of a good person.


Religion is a belief. Man's rational self interest is a fact. We arrive here with nothing. You make things yourself, you appeal to others, or, God and men forbid, you generate a force against other rationally self interested men to take something away from them.