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AHRMA Dissolution?

Discussion in 'WERA Vintage' started by 83BSA, Oct 30, 2006.

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  1. weber#465

    weber#465 mud fight

    everyone take a breath

    HI ALL

    11 days later 200 post working on 7000 veiws Thanks again MONGO.

    On the track we race against each other. I think HERE we should stay a team.

    Dave (83BSA) You bring up some very good points and we would all like to know the answers. (to some of them). I thank you for you efforts in getting to the bottom of this and from your posts you seem to be genuinely concerned but to the point of "angst" and loosing sleep.

    You started this thread and early on stated "if not more than $1,000,000" spent and that may be so. When someone says something about a foolish statement I don't think were trying to call you a fool.

    I think we can see you are not a simpleton, illiterate, or a "fool". Noone want to discourage you in your wanting to know whats going on. We all do.

    I think IF Mr.I would have dropped this when the court dropped the hammer the first time, AHRMA wouldn't be at this point. I don't know if Greene thought that because the court ruled in AHRMA's favor he/they were just protecting what was right or was it personal. To me it does seem to have some personal issues but I can't see, so far, that it was AHRMA.

    I hope we can still ALL pull in the same direction. :rock: :beer: :clap: ;) :rolleyes: :) :Pop: :crackup: :cool:

    If not, then the we all loose.
  2. charles

    charles The Transporter

    Yes, an extraordinary amount of interest shown in this subject. Thanks to WERA for the space to air our thoughts...perhaps Rob Ianucci believed he would prevail, over time, in court. Maybe there is more than one legal issue to resolve; federal judges don't mess around, and you won't waste their time.
    Ianucci is a private citizen, he can do whatever he is legally entitled to do and what he can afford to do. Concerns about AHRMA seem to focus on the
    accountability issue to the members regarding money (funds) and the legal
    representation issues, regardless of how and why the problems arose.
  3. OldSwartout

    OldSwartout Well-Known Member

    David provided a very well-written post with some thoughtful questions. However, several of them addressed issues that have clearly been described by AHRMA representatives as issues they can't comment on bsed on advice of their attorneys. I apologize for the implication that David is foolish, but I object to anyone continuing to try to get AHRMA officials to answer questions that would undermine the lawsuit involving the organization that provides me the opportunity to race. AHRMA may need to answer many questions, but going against the advice of their attorneys is not something any of the membership should be encouraging.
  4. weber#465

    weber#465 mud fight

    I agree:up:

    The people/person that have been AHRMA's counsel are another one I wander about. Is one of their biggest reasons do to the money seems to be limited now. If they are able to drop out, then someone else will have to learn all the information that has been gathered. That will take time and in turn cost more. What did AHRMA get for there money?:

    I think most of the questions that have been asked would be better answered by the lawyer Ted. He was the counseler. Why did we skid off into the gravel trap and who put us there.

    T/O or someone providing letters full of "perhaps, it seems, may have" etc...looks to be a way to have us turn on ourselves and start putting pressure on AHRMA.

    "A countryman between two lawyers is like a fish between two cats."
    Ben Franklin
  5. charles

    charles The Transporter

    Any 'member-owned' organization is owed reasonable, timely, and forthright
    explanations from its directors or officers, no matter how much legal latitude
    is given those directors to run the organization. Of course, there is such a thing as 'attorney-client' privilege and confidential communication, but even
    that has limits. It is highly doubtful that any AHRMA member concocted a kind of a scheme to unravel and twist AHRMA as an organization. Quite the
    contrary, it appears that, as is usual in any organization anywhere, a vocal
    few has led the charge to understand exactly what the current posture of
    AHRMA is as an organization, and this effort no doubt came from their desire
    to see AHRMA continue for the benefit of the members. That there would be
    questions should come as a surprise to no one except those who believe that
    no one should ever disrupt the status quo ever for any reason. That there
    should be answers forthcoming- direct, honest, and sincere- certainly, that
    has to be welcome by all. If there will be problems, then the members can
    attend to them. If there are no problems, then members can feel assured.
  6. Yamaha Fan

    Yamaha Fan Well-Known Member

    Advice of counsel...

    When a defendant hires a legal firm to defend them against a law suit it is the sole obligation of that firm to defend the client..

    As 83BSA (David) pointed out...

    "AHRMA's only affirmative claim is for attorney's fees.

    One does things to maximize its claim.

    In order to maximize its claim, AHRMA increases its attorneys fees.

    AHRMA's attorneys benefit from AHRMA spending more money on litigation."

    The subtleties of this seems to escape some.... The potential that the process was abused resulting in what appears to be the current stalemate is a legitimate probability... If this is the case it might call into question the legitimacy of moneys paid or owed to counsel representing AHRMA (and their actions)....

    On the subject of TO/Rob I It seems readily apparent that the termination of his racing license was a punitive act as a result of the first legal tangle.. I Can't condone the actions that have driven this conflict to the current status, but the questions David has posed do not in any way expose a strategy nor are they in anyway improper.. To me the only Foolish thing would be to allow this to continue blindly on the same path it has been on....

    For those that seek "everyone to pull in the same direction" I do not think David is in conflict with this,, he seems to be WISELY asking in what direction this is being pulled, how much longer will it have to be pulled and who/what agenda is setting the direction.... :up:
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2006
  7. 83BSA

    83BSA Well-Known Member

    Chapter 11

    Stu carter has reported on the Team Obsolete Vintage Racing web site that AHRMA has filed for Chapter 11 (reoganization) bankruptcy protection. That means the business can't pay its debts as they come due. A trustee will be appointed, a reorg plan created, and we'll see what happens.

    Out of money. Stripped of its once considerable assets. :(
  8. sparksfarmer

    sparksfarmer Member

    83 BSA Are you an attorney Dave?

    Hey Dave,

    Are you an attorney? I posted this question before but you must have missed it. Can you reply?

    As today is Veterans Day, lets all hold a good thought for those who have served:up:

  9. lizard84

    lizard84 My “fuck it” list is lengthy

    Yes he is
  10. 83BSA

    83BSA Well-Known Member

    Yes. I am also a professional civil engineer, a trained mediator, a AAA Construction Panel arbitrator, a motorcyclist, an inventor, a US patent holder, a former rugby player, . . . the list goes on and on and covers 49 years of occassionally inspired living.


    Who are you? Where do you live? What is your background?

    Are you Bernie Conflitti (I apologize in advance if I have mis-spelled your name - please give us the correct spelling)? Do you live in the Detroit MI area? What do you race and how long have you been racing? What is your background relevant to the current AHRMA situation? How long have you been an AHRMA member?

    We are all interested. Thank you.
  11. charles

    charles The Transporter

    Very sad. I wonder if filing for a Chap 11, though, indicates that there is no money OR insufficient money (to pay bills)? So now the Bankruptcy Court appoints a trustee, who no doubt will be able to review the financial records...
    how is a nonprofit corporation handled, same as a for-profit?

    Out of money. Why?
  12. 83BSA

    83BSA Well-Known Member

    Perhaps one of the best people to answer that question would be "special litigation consultant" Jeff Smith. How much was he paid for his services as "special litigation consultant"? What experience does he have in litigation that warrented AHRMA paying him a consulting fee? Was it his "expertise" that contributed to or is responsible for the decisions to empty AHRMA's coffers in tilting at the TO windmill? I don't mean to suggest not defending a lawsuit, but there are many approaches one can take in that regard other than scorched earth, millions for defense, not a penny for tribute, etc, etc.

    The long arm of Jeff Smith continues . . . .
  13. charles

    charles The Transporter

    Most interesting...I would presume that all curious members would be able to
    let the Bankruptcy Court judge and court-appointed trustee know all about what has (or has not) been transpiring. Then again, maybe such is not of any
    interest to the judge or trustee...how does this event affect upcoming elections and what happens to the current trustees (those who stayed on ship)?
  14. charles

    charles The Transporter

    It would appear that a Chap. 11 bankruptcy filing is for the purpose of restructuring past due payments. This, by itself, would indicate that Rob Ianucci's claims (yet to be decided by the courts) had nothing to do with the bankruptcy decision. Chap 11 calls for a reorganization plan to be filed, by
    AHRMA in this case, within either 100 or 120 days, depending upon in which state the filing was made; the requirement is clear that a plan is to be set forth to make payments on debts. There is also a U.S. Trustee appointed by the court who gets paid by the debtor (AHRMA) on a quarterly basis unitl the case is converted or dismissed; the U.S. Trustee or a 'party of interest' can request a 'case trustee' or 'examiner' but this is rare.

    The question might be: can a nonprofit or any corporation attempt to avoid a pending or prospective legal judgement by filing a Chap 11 for protection ?
    And, filing a Chap 11 also costs money for the attorneys and filing fes, and
    for the U.S. Trustee as indicated above. More legal fees for AHRMA? Maybe
    our attorney-members can comment. 83BSA???
  15. phantom 309

    phantom 309 Well-Known Member

    Why,read the post above charles, my guess would be about 800,000 or better in legale bills over 5 years .
  16. phantom 309

    phantom 309 Well-Known Member

  17. 83BSA

    83BSA Well-Known Member

    I know VERY little about bankruptcy law, and I make it a very special point (story over drinks sometime) to avoid giving bankruptcy related advice. I'm curious as to how much financial info we, as members, may or may not be entitled to receive from the Trustee or the filing documents. I find it most ironic that the member-owned organization stonewalls critical financial information from its members, then when bankrupt, may be forced to disclose some of that info to the public via filings and mandatory disclosures.
  18. charles

    charles The Transporter

    Well, yes, it could be; who knows except certain AHRMA officers/trustees and
    the attorneys they hired? Even so, there was insurance monies and other funds to draw from, even $800,000 doesn't seem possible to break the bank.
    Chapter 11 does not necessarily indicate there is NO money, it means there are outstanding debts that can not be paid upon demand (legal fees by AHRMA's own attorneys?). Again, members can only guess, but soon, very soon, all of this will come out, like the Enron case...mainly, I suppose people want to know: will AHRMA survive? As I today wrote in the TO website threads, when this all finally shakes out, Rob Ianucci and TO should be welcomed back into the fold of vintage racers, and I hope he hears this and responds positively.

    We should be reminded of Abraham Lincoln's words today on Veterans Day:
    with malice towards none, with charity towards all.
  19. charles

    charles The Transporter

    Well, then, 'we don't need no stinkin' bankruptcy advice!' You might want to pour yourself a refreshing cocktail tonight and review 11 U.S.C. Sec 1104(a)
    and (e). There may be a wide latitude for members (as a group? or as merely
    individuals?) to request and receive a full accounting vis-as-vis the judge and/or U.S. Trustee. Meybe not. Shall this event (Chapter 11) begin the next
    installment of AHMA's very own "Bleak House", employing scores of attorneys for the next two decades until all vintage bikes are piles of rust?
  20. 83BSA

    83BSA Well-Known Member

    AHRMA waited until AFTER the deadline for submissions of trustee candidate statements expired to post the news of its bankruptcy filing on its web site (10 PM last night). Coincidence? Execution of a planned strategy? Accident? You decide.
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