Minimum Wage vs Welfare vs The Wealthy

Wear a rubber.

They can't afford any more kids. :up:

 

Fixed!

 

You're mixing emotions and fairness with how a business remains open. It doesn't matter what the min. wage is...if you aren't profitable then you aren't going to remain in business. And yes it is that simple.

 

Let's see, 70000 posts. Say 15 seconds per post.

70000*15/60/60...that's only like 291 hours for his posts. Then of course he needs to read through everything....holy shit! Dave, are you ever NOT on the BBS?

 

I just leave it up in the background. Nice time killer after a conference call or while waiting yet again at the airport.

 

Don't misunderstand I think there should have been no bailouts of the banks or if it did happen it should have been done in the traditional (legal) manner with management replaced and the bank disbanded or forcefully restructered. The GM/Chrysler bankruptcies also should not have been done illegally by screwing secure bondholders by blackmail while handing a significant portion of the companies to the union that shared in the demise to a degree similar to management.

To big to fail is a monopoly that needs to be broke up IMO

 

Well let me add this: to me, the goal of minimum wage is much the same as the (original) goal of organized labor - to protect the work force from predatory management (employers who will take advantage of workers). There seems to be an expectation that no matter what, leadership of the company should always make X amount of money, no matter what the market is doing.

For example (all numbers are used ONLY for easy math purposes), say that a store has sales of $1 million and gross profits of $500,000 per year. It employs 100 people at the current minimum wage of $5/hr. The government decides that minimum wage should now be $10/hr. Assuming sales and gross profits stay the same, why is the expected outcome that the store fire half of it's employees, make the remaining half work twice as hard, and the owners still maintain exactly the same profit margin? Why is it not acceptable in today's society that the store owners profit slightly less while rewarding their employees slightly more? I mean come on! In the grand scheme of things, the few dollars per hour will make a HUGE difference in the lives of the employees while all it means to the store owner is that he has to buy a Mercedes instead of a Rolls Royce or a G5 instead of a G6.

I'm not suggesting government regulation on how much profit a company can make, I'm only questioning why we, as a society, just assume that it's the workers that ALWAYS suffer, even when it affects them the most severely.

 

Well, seeing that 20% of the individuals in this country pay 78% of the taxes I'd say the wealthy don't "suck it up" but there certainly "pay it out".

 

Not true. The labor market sets the wage. Uneducated stiffs to say "Want fries with that" are plentiful so they get whatever the market dictates and not a cent more. Why should a business be forced to pay an artificial labor rate and then pass that on to consumers???

Your assumption that the owners of businesses are busy buying fancy cars and planes is misguided. Most successful business owners are plowing their profits back into the business to grow it so the can serve more customers, sell more product, make more money and profit and ....wait for it....hire more workers.

 

After reading that article I remembered a line in the movie Sahara were Steve Zahn is talking about "better life choices". This lady has 4 kids. If you are working a minimum wage job, should you really be having all those kids? No I do not know anything about her other than what the article states. I do know that some people do not plan for their future, or do things to prevent "situations" from happening. When I raced WERA I had a lot of money put back so IF I got hurt I could still pay my bills. I know this lady is making minimum wage, but if you went back 10 years what kind of life choices did she make?
Sure college is expensive, I know I had student loans. Sure things happen and I'm not trying to be a total hard nose, but I do know there are plenty of people out there that are in bad situations because of their own doing, they just want to blame someone or something else because it's easy to do that.

 

Are you also willing to work for nothing (or less than $5 a hour)if the company ends the year in the red? Cause it happens a lot the first few years of a business. In not why should you get the reward of profit if your not willing to risk the hardship of not making a profit.

 

I completely agree that business can be unfair. I also agree that what business pays its employees can be very unfair, to the point that a wage paid could be be bad for the economy and bad for society.

I have no problem requiring businesses to do all sorts of things, including paying a minimum wage.

It is no only legal and Constitutional, but both sides of the aisle support it.

 

The intent was to protect workers, including those with families. Minimum wage can be a "starter job", but for many families it is the only job, and its a long term job.

That was the basis of your fail.

 

Nobody can be "above average" if they don't actually try to be and if you feel so strongly about the poor why don't you do more than demand that others take care of them? How about taking a poor family into your home and helping them that way? Of course, there is always the danger that they won't actually try to improve their own lot in life and decide not to ever move out.

 

This.

I didnt have a ton growing up but my parents always made sure we had the neccessities and my dad would work a 2nd job to try and get us something "nice" that we wanted for Christmas. Now that I go back and look at what my dad was making when we were kids (1 brother), I feel terrible asking for stuff like a Nintendo. And I think about all the things my dad went without while I was growing up so that he could try and "spoil us" once or twice a year.

Im 33 now, I've been busting my ass since I was 18. At one point I was working two jobs and 16 hours a day, just because I was that motivated to do something with my life. There were circumstances in my life that could have kept me down but I just kept pushing.

I was fortunate to get involved in something at the right time but that didnt change my work ethic of busting my ass (still to this day) to make sure that I'm successful.

I dont believe in forced charity nor anything similar to it. I do more than my share of giving back both financially (to what I deem appropriate) and with my time as well.

So forgive me if I get fucking pissed when you want to "take" from me to "even things out".

 

Someone should've paid better attention in math class.

Consider ten people, earning the following annual wages: $16,000, $20,000, $22,000, $25,000, $30,000, $35,000, $40,000, $50,000, $100,000, and $1,000,000.

The total earned by all ten is $1,338,000, therefore the average is $133,800, or more than 9 of the individuals' annual earnings, putting 90% of the hypothetical group's population below average.

I believe the word you were looking for is mean.

 

My opinion.

Increasing the minimum wage real results:

Lower class - zero sum game.
Middle class - diminishes.
Upper class - zero to no effect.

I do not follow the drivers for raising the minimum wage. Often cited is purchasing power. I fail to come to any conclusion that remotely supports the premise. In real effects, it is just an inflationary multiplier.

The resulting inflation is solely burden by the middle class with individuals at the bottom of the bracket joining the lower class.

Inflation nullifies any increase, great or low. The very rich will adust prices to ensure profits continue at current or greater returns.

A case could be made that givernment sees a greater return through taxation but any gains are for not unless it acts responsibly in spending. Government is prone to follow what they do best, burden future generations instead of acting.

 

Aren't you kind of mixing up different issues here? Let's define who you mean when you refer to "the wealthy" and who is being "bailed out?" We might also add the question; who does create jobs? The wealthy, businesses, or the poor?

 

It is not an employers responsibility, nor the government's to make sure you have prepared yourself for life. According to Federal Statistics, it takes something like $125,000 to raise a kid to age 18. If you assume that a four person, traditional family, that's 2 kids for $250k to raise to 18. Based on a 40hour work week, a single wage earner has to make $6.67 per hour just to house, clothe and feed the kids. That doesn't leave anything for the parents.

If that message is not being pounded into the heads of the young folks, then the system will not change. Every increase in minimum wage results in increased prices and fewer minimum wage opportunities. Trying to make the existing labor market fit economic realities ignores the systemic changes in markets. Whether through corporate greed (including some minimum wage pensioners) in the interest of shareholders, government regulation, or simply the consumer driven we want it all and we want it now mentality, we have shipped the high paying, minimum skill jobs out of the US. That isn't going to change. Trying to make a laborer position pay enough to provide for a family of four will simply accelerate the loss of that position.

 

Taking your numbers doesn't say much about what the net profit is of your mentioned business. Gross profit is reduced when all the expenses of doing business are added together. What would be the cost of hiring those 100 people above the cost of salary?

In today's business environment it costs an average business an additional 1/3 of the employees salary just to hire him. So, for those 100 employees making 5 bucks an hour the total cost would be about; $1,040,000.00 salaries plus another $300,000 dollars worth of benefits. Double that when they go to 10 bucks per hour. It jumps from $1,340,000.00 to $2,680,000.00 per year. Then he gets to add his overhead and other incidental expenses. Suddenly his profit margin has dropped to a level that, as a business owner, might not be acceptable.

Remember, a business doesn't exist for the benefit of the employees. They are a necessary part of doing business but a successful business will operate with only as many employees as it needs. A privately owned business is not a charity organization.

One of the biggest problems that today's businesses face is the continued added regulations, taxes, and rules that have been placed on them. In fact, all the additional suggested regulations on business that are being argued in Congress is one of the main hangups to a growing economy. A ton of business owners simply don't what to do presently. Most are sitting on their hands and not hiring because they don't know if they will need more help or not.

Get Government out of the way and watch the economy take off.

Damn, I'm long winded.