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Zell Miller makes a complete ass out of himself

Discussion in 'The Dungeon' started by Team Atomic, Sep 2, 2004.

  1. Knarf Legna

    Knarf Legna I am not Gary Hoover

    It was indicative of the sad state to which the military had degraded during the Clinton Administration. It was not a failure of the Apache as you originally stated, it was a failure to keep pilots trained and systems up to date. Big difference.
     
  2. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    Not what I'm reading - assuming Frank is telling the truth (and so far he's been proven to do so with no spin whatsoever) what he's posted to me looks like the army didn't have the personnel properly trained and didn't deploy a weapon for their undertrained use - oddly for the military in most cases a very smart move as far as I can tell.

    So where's the failure? To me a failure would have been to send out the peeps without the proper training... What they did was make a sound tactical decision.

    Tom - you really need to step back and look at facts and not allow your obvious leanings to influence your interpretation of those facts. There are plenty of good arguments why both parties suck. Neither one of the candidates is all that much better than the other and unless you understand they both suck ass you'll never have a grasp on what's real and what's not.

    Kerry flip flops although he sometimes has good reason to do so as he gets more info. G Dub isn't the brightest bulb but hasn't done a horrid job by any stretch. They are both politicians and deserve to be tarred and featheres because of it.
     
  3. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    Oh yeah - Zell is the only person I'd vote for with good conscience - he's been nothing but britally honest in his observations of the Democratic party. And he's totally correct, the focus of the party has changed drastically over the last dozen years. The Repulicans are in charge across the board because the hippies running the Dem party have aliented the majority of Americans. They need to pay attention to Zeb and get back more towards the middle or turn into the Green Party.
     
  4. tcasby

    tcasby Banned

    /sputter /sputter I need to? - I need to? :D
     
  5. XFBO

    XFBO Well-Known Member

    To me, the failure is exactly where Frank mentioned it the former administration sleeping on the job instead of keeping the military and intelligence community on the up n up and highly trained. Instead they downsized everythng.

    As much as a dislike politicians altogether atleast the right tends to throw OUR money in areas that keeps this nation strong unlike the left who throw it to the poverty stricken ppl to lock in their vote......

    I love it when ppl say this.......what meter did you use to come to this conclusion?
     
  6. kmfegan

    kmfegan Well-Known Member

    Not knowing that much about aircraft in general and I know that I had seen a million Apache's in the sky I figured I would do something that is foreign to at least one member of this forum, research.

    Here is how capable the Apache is.
    http://www.army-technology.com/projects/apache/

    http://www.army-technology.com/projects/apache/

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/ah-64d.htm

    The links could go on and on, but these three seemed to have pretty good info.

    There is this thing on the web called "Google". To find it just type in www.google.com in your web browsers address bar and it will take you there. Once you get onto Google's homepage you will find a bar there located next to the Google logo. You can type anything you want in there, like "apache helicopter" for example. Once you have entered the item of interest you click the "Search" button and it will trigger a search that will come back with loads of information on what you entered.
     
  7. tcasby

    tcasby Banned

    Since the first Gulf War, the Apache has only been used once in it's intended roll; long strike capability. This was Karbala (sp?) where defenders with small arms were able to chase them away.
    Had the Iraqis had a quantity of modern shoulder fired missiles, the Apaches would not have flown at all.

    After that their roll was pretty much relegated to close air support and supply line protection. Their operational readiness was poor, due to sand damaged rotors, avionics, and air filters. In addition many Apaches were damaged by landing accidents caused by dust obscured visibility.

    Other than the ideal conditions of the first Gulf war, attack helicopters have never had a significant offensive impact, and probably never will.
     
  8. kmfegan

    kmfegan Well-Known Member

    The same could be said about any helicopter and some planes.

    The biggest thing that turned the tide of the Afghanistan war against the Soviets was the delivery of US stinger missiles to the mujahideen.
    Up until that point the Soviets had a big upper hand due to their unchallenged air support.
    Once they received the stingers the mujahideen shot down 269 Soviet planes and aircraft by the end of the war.
    I don't think the Soviets were using Apache's either.
    I do not have the facts on all of these crashes in front of me. I am going to go out on a limb to say that the majority of these incidents could be traced to pilot error, probably due to the insufficient training that had previously been mentioned. According to the military, 80% of all helicopter crashes are due to human error.
    I also believe that incidents such as these are not limited to the Apache helicopter.
    Helo pilots are trained to use their instruments when landing in low or no visibility situations. I have read that incorrectly reading these instruments and disorientation are found to be the cause of many of these accidents.
    Don't those two statements contradict each other?
    In one sentence you are saying that the Apache is easily damaged by sand. Then you say that they shined in the "ideal" conditions of the Gulf war. Didn't the first Gulf war take place in the desert and isn't there sand in the desert?
     
  9. tcasby

    tcasby Banned

    Exactly right, but unlike the Apache, the Black Hawk serves a variety of rolls. Shuttling troops between the front and the rear, medivac, re-supply, etc. Even the little Kiowa turned out to be a more useful attack platform because it's size and maneuverability allowed it to hide it in what little terrain there was. The Apaches roll was accomplished more effectively and safely by a variety of other platforms.

    Tactics for shooting down helicopters with simple weapons are well known by most bad guys. A fact we know to well.

    Helicopters have only a few hundred mile range. In a place the size of Iraq, this means primitive landing, refueling, and maintenance conditions, in a variety of environments. Training for every possible condition that could be encountered, like landing with you're eyes closed, is imposable.

    Kuwait is small enough so that the whole country is range of hard surfaced well equipped bases. Also the problem in Iraq was not really sand, but a very find dust.
     
  10. kmfegan

    kmfegan Well-Known Member

    We were talking about vulnerability, not versatility. If you are going to talk apples then talk apples. Making a switch to oranges is not going to help your argument.
    Yes but the thing is that ALL helicopters suffer from the same vulnerability. Your previous posts implied that the Apache was inferior as it was vulnerable to weapons fire.
    That statement is absolutely ridiculous.
    Landing in zero visibility situations is a common occurrence with military helicopters (that is what we are discussing here, specifically the Apache). Inclement weather is something often encountered in military operations, be it sand or even snow blocking visibility. Military pilots do it all the time and are trained for it. Michael Durant (the pilot that was held as a prisoner in Somalia after his Blackhawk was shot down) discusses several zero visibility landings as a military pilot in his book, In The Company Of Heroes
    You do know that the Gulf War involved Kuwait and we are not talking about Mexico right?
    Kuwait is located right next to Iraq and the conditions are not that different. Either the helicopter works good in the desert or it does not. You can't have it both ways depending upon what point you are trying to make.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2004
  11. Knarf Legna

    Knarf Legna I am not Gary Hoover

    Apache has a range of over 1,100 miles when fitted with external tanks.
     
  12. tcasby

    tcasby Banned

    OK, I should have said a combat range of a few hundred miles.

    Does last post win? :D
     
  13. Knarf Legna

    Knarf Legna I am not Gary Hoover

    Apaches encountering dust and sand in Desert Storm? Nah, never happened. ;)

    [​IMG]

    tcasby, maybe you could tell us what led the very first combat operation in Desert Storm, code named "Normandy", and what fired the first shots of the war?
     
  14. Knarf Legna

    Knarf Legna I am not Gary Hoover

    Two flights of Apaches flew more than a few hundred miles in operation Normandy to fire the opening shots of Desert Storm.

    Last post always wins. ;)
     
  15. In Your Corner

    In Your Corner Dungeonesque Crab AI Version

    It's a little-known fact that Zell Miller invented the Apache.

    He was vacationing with Al Gore on a borrowed boat called the Monkeybusiness at the time.
     
  16. RoadRacerX

    RoadRacerX Jesus Freak

    Did Donna Rice do the de-cyphering, and what was Jerry Springer's final thought on this? :D
     
  17. Shyster d'Oil

    Shyster d'Oil Gerard Frommage

    Wrong. It can fly for 1100 without refueling, depending on conditions. Which makes its range 550 miles - "range" is defined by the Apache Field Operations Manual as the actual hours/miles that can be flown and then returned to base without refueling but with auxillary fuel tanks (fixed or jettisonable).

    See page 334 of the manual. Fascinating reading. Did you know that the Apache comes with a toilet and a vanity mirror?

    So Casby wins.

    Frank is a weenie!!!!!!:D
     
  18. kmfegan

    kmfegan Well-Known Member

    So Rodger I guess it wouldn't be able to fly from one base to another that was 1000 miles apart then?
     
  19. Shyster d'Oil

    Shyster d'Oil Gerard Frommage

    It would, but that is not what "range" is defined as.

    And did you guys know that an AM/FM radio came as a standard on the first Apaches???
     
  20. Shyster d'Oil

    Shyster d'Oil Gerard Frommage

    Operation Normandy was the first declassified operation. Operation Gerbil, and several others, occured before open hostilities began. Op Gerbil involved the insertion of the CIA's super secret military ops Rodent Team into an opening in the enemy's soft underbelly.

    So Frank is wrong again!!!!!!!!!:D
     

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