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WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz

Discussion in 'The Dungeon' started by Team Atomic, May 30, 2003.

  1. Johnny B

    Johnny B Cone Rights Activist

    That statement is totally fucked! :p
     
  2. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    Due - I did ask for proof not more assertions. If you can provide proof I'd love to see it. So far nothing you have said is anything more than your political views with the exception of the torture article link. Guess what - that doesn't have any proof either, just assertions that it's happening because a firend of a friend of a reporter said it might be.

    I would not have voted for Bush - however I won't accept that he is ordering torture (and sleep deprivation is not torture sorry, nor is sensory deprivation).

    You haven't even come close to reality on any of your assertions - so why make them? Do you hate the american government so much that you are willing to lie about them? Seems rather silly really.
     
  3. Due North

    Due North Source of Insanity

    Mongo, there is no proof that would satisfy you. Video would not satisfy you, . You said it yourself, "... - however I won't accept that he is ordering torture ..."

    Do I hate the American government, no. Sorry, but I don't hate anyone. I do not believe that the ends ever justify the means. There are certain levels of behaviour (torture, murder, theft, subjugation, ....) that are always morally corrupt, regardless of who commits them; a first world country or a despot. I wonder, how would you be able to tell the difference between a leader and a dictator if they both acted the same?

    BTW, how do you come to the conclusion that I have lied about them?
     
  4. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    Gimme a break. I won't even ask for courtroom proof - how about grand jury proof? You know, just enough to invetigate further? And change accept to agree in my statement - I obviously mistyped.

    My conclusion - because you cannot back up your assertions with facts. Therefore, a lie.

    You say you don' t hate yet you have no proof that the actions you keep talking about are even happening. You make a judgement with no evidence or proof. To me it's obvious there is more to why you are making these assertions when logic dictates you shouldn't. So in the absence of logic I guess it must be emotion dictating your posts.

    As for ends never justifying the means - hope you don't ever need surgery. The end result of being healed would suck since your encompassing statement would keep you form accepting the means of being cut into...
     
  5. Due North

    Due North Source of Insanity

    Mongo, you wrote that I have no proof. Proof is subjective - based on the individual's acceptance of evidence as sufficient to accept an assertion as true. I can't, by simple logic, ever provide you proof. I am limited to offering evidence, its up to you to decide if it is proof. I offered evidence to back up my opinion. Evidence that I feel is compelling enough to accept the assertion that people are being tortured. You may not feel that it's sufficient, that's cool, people differ and I understand that.

    Now as far as grand jury proof is concerned, wouldn't a body and an eyewitness be sufficient? I'm not a lawyer, but that would be enough, would it?

    So, how is it that, To quote your own words, "You make a judgement with no evidence or proof" ???

    As for your last statement, you're grasping at straws there. Yes, a doctor humanely performing surgery in an attempt to heal a person is acceptable. I do not accept that torturing a person is ever acceptable (the 'means'), regardless of the justifcation (the 'ends').

    How about this, you have the opportunity to possibly cure cancer. Its not certain, but there's a chance that if you were to disect a human being, organ by organ while they are alive and without anesthetic, you might discover the key to curing a disease that kills millions. Would you do it?
     
  6. mad brad

    mad brad Guest

    yep. especially if it were due.
     
  7. RCjohn

    RCjohn Killin machine.

    I'm not going to read through the whole thread but...

    what the hell is wrong with a little torture here and there when you need information? :rolleyes:

    :p
     
  8. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    Due - Wasn't grasping at straws, you made the encompassing statement.

    As for proof - where is the body and the eyewitness? Everyhting I read was third or fourth or even further person. No bodies, no witnesses. I'd gladly take those as proof. It's be even better if they are credible and and can be corroborated.


    So back to the original question - what does the torture you have "proof" of have to do with Iraq and your assertion that the tropps over there are torturing Iraqi citizens? What about all your other statments?
     
  9. Due North

    Due North Source of Insanity

    If you read my original post carefully, you would realize that I wrote, "As long as they support the occupying power they are 'free', should they voice an opposing position they risk detention, torture, execution. "

    The key here is the word risk.

    Detention: US Forces are detaining individuals who 'incite disorder' or who are loyal to the Baath party.

    Torture: I accept as fact that US Forces and/or other governmental agencies torture foreign nationals, hell Canadian Forces were doing it in Somalia.

    Execution: The American administration has made a policy of targeted killings.
     
  10. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    ROTFLMAO - nice spin. Didn't work but a valiant effort all the same.

    So basically you are risking death because you too are speaking out against the american governments policies - well ain't you just the death defying activist! More power to you for facing death for your beliefs! I for one don't have the werewithal to do so, I kowtow to the evil powers that run my country.
     
  11. Joss

    Joss F3 Dabbler

    Due: "Torture: I accept as fact that US Forces... "

    And, I accept as fact that you harbor some, yet unexplained, hatred of the United States, and are quite willing to lie your ass off about anything and everything.

    Thus, if your assertion is true... simply by your "acceptance"... then I apply the same logic and this is the "proof" that you are a hateful liar.... pretty much what Mongo said.

    I wouldn't be all that concerned about it though. It's not as if it's been some big secret that we have just found out. :rolleyes:
     
  12. Shyster d'Oil

    Shyster d'Oil Gerard Frommage

    To believe that absolutely no torture is commited by US forces numbering in the hundreds of thousands is simply stupid. Its a war for chissakes and bad shit happens.

    The question is to what extent is torture a matter of intended US policy and what does our military do with US soldiers who do violate all dcent norms of civilization by torturing combatants or non-combatants? Until we see some real evidence about the extent of torture and US policy. . . who gives a shit? It's not like we're Israelis or something.:p

    ANd I don't think you need to draw blood to torture someone, but I'd rather be sleep deprived than have my eyes gouged out.:Puke:

    And our occupying force is relatively benign as compared to the Nazi's or even the US in Vietnam.

    Due, I think you are going a bit overboard. I know you are not hateful though. Don't let the pro-torture folks here get you down!!!

    Blah, blah, blah!!!

    Rodger
     
  13. Due North

    Due North Source of Insanity

    Show me one lie. Or are you, just some douchebag spouting off?
     
  14. Joss

    Joss F3 Dabbler

    Roger,

    Just clarification (if necessary). What I personally believe about Due is immaterial. My point was the logical absurdity of claiming that "I accept blah, blah, blah..." is proof.

    I could have as easily said that "I accept" he is really a Martian, transported here by a special cell phone that only pinko liberals have access codes to.... and thus it is true. The flaw is that "I accept" means nothing as far as proof is concerned.

    "I personally saw...." would be another thing. As would "So and so was there and he has come forward admitting......"
     
  15. Due North

    Due North Source of Insanity

    No spin, just basic reading comprehension. :p
     
  16. Shyster d'Oil

    Shyster d'Oil Gerard Frommage

    Not necessary!

    I mostly agree with Due (especially on important Canadian issues, like bacon and strip clubs) but I don't see his point on the torture issue.

    Rodger
     
  17. RCjohn

    RCjohn Killin machine.

    I agree with the first part but...

    A good eye gouging might not be so bad if well rested. :D :p
     
  18. Due North

    Due North Source of Insanity

    Rodger, next time you're up - beers and strippers. I'll pay for the beers, you pay for your own strippers!!! :D
     
  19. Dennis Piert

    Dennis Piert Well-Known Member

    Do you have to see it?

    If your in your house with all the windows closed, and someone asks you... "Is your grass green?" Do you need to go outside to see if it is? My guess is that your inteligence has gathered information from passing it on a daily basis to "know" that it is green. Therefore you don't have to see it because you know the answer. Iraq just pulled up the sod before anyone could hold it down, and there are quite a few reasons for that occurring.
    Dennis
     
  20. Due North

    Due North Source of Insanity

    So Dennis, what your saying is, if I understand you correctly, "Don't believe your eyes, believe the politicians ???" :p :D

    Politicians have justified their actions, in which thousands and thousands of people have died, by claiming that WMDs existed. If WMDs do not / did not exist, wouldn't this be genocide, or mass murder?
     

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