What happened..

Very valid question.
Have a look at AHRMA grids and look at who is on grid there.
Notice a few names that used to race Wera vintage.
So any one have a suggestion on how to grow vintage grids?

Steven

 

So most AHRMA racers don't want to race as much as WERA offers? That's weird

 

I 2nd this

 

Well i can see that with V5 down.
V6 HW up bikes are out there and both V7 classes bikes are everywhere and cheap
These classes should be the breading grounds for new riders cause start up is cheaper.
Hell there are 5 bikes right now for V7 that have been for sale for over 4 yrs.
So far 2 of the front running F2 and F3 bikes are on grid in Texas at Cmra in classic.
And they paid a fair price for bikes.
And 1 bike that sold at beginning of yr was offered a very low amount until i help post it on Cmra Facebook page.
So whats the answer?

Steven

 

So is that your view or Wera point of view?
I ask a question to all vintage riders.
Figured they may have a solution and since you dont like any of my ideas thought id see if other had a better idea.
If i was trolling i would have already said what i think.
But since im not trolling but asking a question to people who race vintage.
I think its a fair question dont you think?
So dont make this about me as you seem to do when this subject comes up.
Stick to the issue of low turn out in vintage.

Steven

 

IMHO, people are way too proud of their vintage bikes. If I was going to go get one, it would actually need to priced right. Partly because vintage crowd "ready to race" amd my definition of "ready to race" are two different things.


Nobody gives a shit about points, just stop.

 

Ok who brought up anytime about points?
I asked a question on how to solve this issue. Nothing more.
Why the hostility?
And while some folks may be proud as you call it on vintage bikes.
In some parts of the country they get a decent price and are and have been raced in other series.
So not sure why you say that.
Also know where more bikes are for sale.

Steven

 

Just saying, the whole point of vintage IMHO is cheaper cost of entry. That's not reality though. I can buy a modern track prepped basic 600 for cost of a 20 year old SRAD. Doesn't make sense.

Not sure how that has anything to do with what WERA can do.

 

Well a srad 600 are NOT legal for V7 so that is not even a question
750 are only legal for V8 class.
Now ZX6R and F3s are and can be had reasonably cheap.
Now with those bikes you can be competitive on V7 class 1st time out.
Can you be competitive on a modern trackday bike in any C or B class in expert or even Novice class?
Cause i know lap times of them all.
And dont think that can happen.
Vintage is cheaper and best part and this is the best sales point about V6 HW up to V8.
The rules dont change and the bikes dont get faster every few yrs.
So you can race same bike forever in class if you like.
EBoz is still racing same 1100 bike he raced against me in 2001.
Thats My sales pitch for vintage.

Steven

 

Well i for one didnt start thread.
Figured id ask just as others have on how some others may have ideals.
Again why single me out for asking same question as others?
Maybe someone who reads this thread will have a better solution on how to grow grids.
I have not and wont offer any solution as any ideal i have about vintage has been turned down and shown to not be wanted.
So i asked others who may have another view than me.
So have a great night.

Steven

 

Since I did start this thread, I'll chime in with my .02.
Steve- I appreciate your enthusiasm for trying to come up with some positive thought, but there actually are other classes besides v7. All of the classs are important, butbthe ones that are dying the fastest are the older classes. V7 can easily be saved if people would just show up.

Just show up

Three simple words that can make or break any class. Blame the economy, blame Obama, blame the price of tea in China. This is an expensive sport and it is also inherently dangerous. These factors cause a lot of people to get into it for a few years and then move on, or at the very least, drift off, racing fewer and fewer races. This is a fact that is engraved in stone. It's just the cycle of life in racing. What seems to be missing is the new blood, fresh meat or whatever you want to call it. In the 90's there was formula rd. Ss rules kept the bikes relatively equal and a lot of forstime racers used it to get into racing. Sadly, we, the racers screwed of up by trying to make faster bikes and find creative ways to bend the rules. In response, the rules got stricter and more complicated. In 3 seasons the rules for that class went from the simplest rules in the wera rulebook to 3+ pages of minute technical bs. So that class died. Then we invented v7. (Rain Director and I wrote 95% of the class rules for that btw...) V7 was a big hit at first, just grab an f2, zx6, yzf600 (sorry Suzuki fans...katana wasn't competitive in pro racing during those years either) and with minimal race prep you had a competitive bike. Lots of new racers were joining the "vintage" ranks and there was a lot of close racing. Again, racers sorta fudged it up. First it was hybrids, then there were superbike motors showing up. Sometimes 750's with 600 bodywork. Whatever. The rules didn't get too involved, by a lot of new people stopped showing up. Then there was the cb350 explosion. This one, like v7, really took off at first. A bunch of guys hammering the snot out of mostly stock cb350's, which were often put on the track for less than $1k. This REALLY attracted a lot of new guys to vintage racing, but it seemed to start the rolling of the death knell for some of the older vintage classes for the cool old bikes. When you have a rare 50year old Ducati single that you've dumped $10k into and the rules change allowing a 15 year newer cb350 "junkyard dog" that cost $800 to line up next to you and not only race on your class, but be the bike to beat in that class, who can blame you for looking elsewhere to race?

This is not to say that these 3 classes are the problem, just pointing out that all 3 of them we're really good for a while at bringing in new riders, but in all 3, after a few years a of success, the "old guard" that had dialed the rules and dialed their racecraft made the class no longer attractive to newbies. (I think I started to stray from that a little, but I'm not going to delete and retype...)

This brings me to the nuts of the situation: Why are AHRMA grids doing so much better? Before we hit that, know that AHRMA also has classes that are shrinking now. Not all of them, but some. They also have a LOT of classes and could really benefit from marrying a couple together, but I'm not here to discuss their problems, but rather, focus on one or 2 things I think they are doing better. I've only been racing w AHRMA for 5 years now, so I'm far from an expert on their affairs, but one of their secret weapons is that they have a class dedicated to bringing in novice racers. Machine rules are strict, very few mods allowed, but more importantly, you MUST move out of the class of you win the championship! Let's be honest: I'm one of the biggest championship "whores" out there, so this may sound weird coming from me, but having to battle head to head with multi time champions is a proven way to keep new people from joining. Wera has a novice/expert system for their modern classes and it works great, but that has never applied to the vintage classes, so newbies get "thrown in with the sharks" Ahrmas novice production heavyweight and middleweight classes regularly draw in new racers every year and after a year or 2 in the class, racers HAVE to move on. From there, they can decide how they want to mod their bikes and which direction they go. As they've been racing already for a season or two, they're not so intimidated when they pull up to the grid and see Roper, Joyce, Spargo or Mooney lined up next to them.

Another thing AHRMA does really well is attracting older, more financially stable racers. I can't really speak to how, and I don't nexcesrily agree with all of the facets, (like not allowing anyone under 18 to race) but it does make a difference. Racing AHRMA is definitely more expensive than WERA. For one, you HAVE to travel if you want a chance at a championship. Here are only 10 races per year and you need to go to at least 5 to have a chance, but you can't get more than 2 or three without driving a good bit outside of your region. Also, I mentioned the deep pockets of the average competitor, AHRMA bikes are VERY fast and VERY well prepared. Even Mid packers have top notch bikes, built close to the class limits and it's not uncommon to see the really fast guys roll up to the grid on some unobtainable piece of history that Sheene, Hailwood, Schwartz, Reed or Roberts once rode to a WORLD championship!! This at first turned me off a bit nc I've always been a bit "value focused" with my bike builds, but the bottom line is: of you want to play, you need to pay.

Still, all of this really doesn't mean that much bc AHRMA still sees almost exactly 50% of its revanue from the "modern" classes. (That also means they are getting 50% from "true" vintage classes....) Ots not exactly fun being out on the track on a 60hp rd400 and having a pack of 2018 Ducati's, bmws amd buells go blasting by 40-50 mph faster! (Like seriously??? I'm WINNING my class but I'm getting lapped!?!?)

So no system is perfect, but for me, I'm getting a LOT more competition with AHRMA currently. So far this year, I've gone to 6 WERA races and 4 AHRMA races. I run 3 classes with both orgs. At every single AHRMA race, the smallest grid in my class has been 4 bikes and the biggest was 16. With WERA, not counting Mid Ohio, (which was AWESOME and I will go to every year!) I've been the only bike in my class at least 6 times, and even the biggest I've seen was 5. (To be fair, even though the grids are small, I've not been able to hang with the fast guys in V6lw and have only won that class when none ofnthebfast guys show up, so I do get some GREAT competition in that class)
Sonthe bottom line, is I feel I've been dong everything I could to support WERA this year with all of the changes. Of even half of the people that clamored for changes over the winter went to even half as many races, we wouldn't be having these discussions.

Sean and Evelyn, I think you guys have done a great job trying to make things work for the Vintage community. Not every decision over time has been perfect, but I truly believe they have all been made with everyone's best intent at heart. I really thought with all of the extra races available on the schedule this year that we would see some more people at the track. VIR hadn't had a vintage race in 8 years so I figured we would see a lot of mid Atlantic people that we haven't seen in a long time, but literally, 3 vintage racers showed up. Hope tgpr was better!

 

To add to the statement of expecting to see more vintage guys in the mid-atlantic popping up after a hiatus of even summit for example......CCS has a few vintage classes and we have a full schedule.......yet no vintage guys from WERA are racing there either. Granted I see a few of them at the track,but they are there just hanging out helping other guys that are racing modern classes. Ive even offered to pay entries to any WERA vintage racer in my region if they knock the cobwebs off and come grid up with me at Summit, even if it is CCS. Yet no biters at all!!! Im at a loss for ideas,and have haven't been around long enough to have a knowledgeable background of what would work and what wouldn't.

 

I paid $400 for my fzr400 and 200 bucks for an fzr600 to take the engine out to race with that,to get started. So my bike cost 600 bucks and I raced the first 2 years on stock suspension.It can be way cheaper if you find the bikes on craigslist in the middle of winter and the millenial selling it is deadly afraid of getting some grease on his or her hands

 

I haven't been out in WERA or AHRMA for years now, but that doesn't mean I'm done with it, it just means that other events in life have overtaken me! Every time I believe I've got time to spare, something comes up to thwart my plans to get out there again on the track. As Mark (RZ Racer) knows, I've got a decent machine to ride, not that I could ever hang with Mark...and yes, vintage machines are labor-intensive at times, and can be expensive...anyway, none of what appears to be a 'disinterest' in vintage racing is WERA's fault in any way, shape, or form. Time passes, and riders and their bikes grow older, things happen, there are pressures, concerns, etc, and choices/decisions need to be made...and by the way, we need to remember that we don't see many DC-3's or P-51's flying around anymore, so 'modernization' takes it toll in every which way, and every new generation has a different way of looking at things.

The only questions that need to be addressed are simply these: how does a race organization, or group of vintage racers, appeal to riders/racers to get into the vintage scene? Is there any way to attract new (younger?) riders into vintage racing? Necessity, it is said, is the mother of invention.

Charles