Right to die, obligation to live

Well, I don't agree with your order of priority, as it is obvious we think differently as to the value of even unknown humans to any animal, but I do respect how you answered the question combined with your past experience.

BTW, the next time you are around Summit, make sure you stop by and visit. You know "don't be a stranger!"

Sorry, that's easy. Based on the constraint you have given me, I get to save one. I then go on to be grief stricken that I couldn't save both...but no choices are being made here

 

My cats Rule.

I'd rather deal with them then 99% of the people I know.

Did I say my cats rule? well they do.

 

Badda Bing.

 

Hey, I did not say that I would "discard" my pet. I said that I would not spend an enormous amount of money on her. You said yourself that spending $1M on a person didn't make sense when you can provide so many people with basic healthcare - well I wouldn't spend $50K on brain surgery for my cat when I can rescue another from being killed at the pound.

BTW, I have no kids, they certainly wouldn't be free if I did, I patch my tires thank-you, and the bang comment was still lame.

 

How far do you want me to go? Just to name a few...
Learning more about cell biology, genetics, American history, world history, doing some serious star watching, finally figuring out the difference between cirrus and cumulous (sp?) clouds, seeing California, the Grand Canyon, Arizona, Germany, Russia, Japan, Spain, Greece, Egypt, studying the Bible in depth, praying, praising, reading the ton of books I own but never got around to reading, reading the ton of books I'd like to own, annoying others on the WERA BBS every day instead of just some days, writing poetry, writing essays, listening to the dozens of CDs I have but never get around to playing, listening to the dozens I've never gotten around to owning, painting, praying, praising...

What? I mentioned those last two twice? Probably 'cause I'd be doing alot of those.

Look, I'm fully aware that this is all very easy to say where I am. And I have no idea what my state of mind would be in that position. But hopefully if I think these things out enough now, and if my loved ones remind me of them, I will have many things to live for if I am ever in that position.

 

Finally, someone who gets it!!!

 

Every one of those items you mentioned, other than praying and praising, are seriously difficult tasks to a quadraplegic. Learning or reading is hard if you can't open a book or turn a page. Most of the things you listed under "seeing" are also extremely difficult, if not impossible, to do in that condition. While I'm far from an expert on paralysis, I understand that there are heat-related issues to deal with as well so Arizona, Egypt, and the Grand Canyon are probably out of the question. And even if they aren't, hiking to the bottom of the canyon or venturing into the Great Pyramid certainly is. Even "playing CD's" requires outside assistance. "Painting" is also not an option.

Please don't take this as a personal attack, because it's not meant that way. I'm only trying to get at the fact that I can't come up with too many things one could do without the constant assistance of another human being. Let alone what's required as part of daily life, I'm only getting at what's required to do something that brings an improvement to the quality of one's life.

Yes, praying and praising require no mobility. But that's not an item of interest to some folks, Papa included, so it's not enough for me to hang my hat on by any stretch.

Now I'll give you the "writing" one, but even that is frustrating since it takes much longer than it did the old way. It also assumes that writing a book is something of interest to everyone, which also may or may not be true.

And as we all can admit, the list of life's activities that it removes from the table could fill volumes. Much of the joys of life are contained in those volumes, that's all. Is there enough left to make it worthwhile? That's the personal decision that I think we all have the right to make for ourselves.

 

Tom,don't just think in terms of mobility. It may meet true that there are many things that can be accomplished without it. But more than mobility, what my accident cost me is independence. That is much more difficult to me without when you have my personality traits. Still, don't underestimate the change to your quality of life that would result from losing your mobility. You have spent hours in my hospital room and my apartment, but those were "visiting hours." You have not seen what life is like behind the scenes.

 

And there is why I've said to you in private what I have Slick.

 

About Buddhism as being reincarnated as a quadriplegic baby. If it is the condition you have been in since your first day, I don't think you feel the same way about it. Unless reincarnation comes with memories of your previous lives. I don't know much about Buddhism, but I don't believe it is the case.

 

It's like a comedian said in his show, "If hooking a monkey up to a car battery will keep my son from dying of AIDS then I've got but two things to say, RED IS FOR POSITIVE AND BLACK IS FOR NEGATIVE!."

His point being of course, it sucks but research must go on. Our company picks up some of the most vial research shit you can imagine to ship for disposal but testing must occur. It is ashame that so many cute Beagles get used but hell.

 

Hey Papa, I didn't say anything, he read my mind....



Did I see behind the scenes? Or did I see a prettier side of your existence?

 

Nick DiPaolo.

Got the CD.

Ever wonder how many miles I have spent on the road???

 

BTW Papa,

Don't make me come back there and hitch the Red to your positive, and the Black to your ass!!!!

I will shock your ass back into existence!

Although I haven't figured out how to pay for the last visit, I don't need too much of an excuse to come back there!

I had a great time there. Thanks for telling me you would be there. I would have missed you, and missed a beautiful place on Earth.

 

Max, what you saw was a mixture of customer service at the front counter and work in the warehouse. You probably have a little more insight than Tom does into the dark side of things, even though he has spent more time with me. And if you want to have more money to spend the next time you visit, fly a slower airplane.

Regarding the debate that developed about humans versus animals, I have to agree with some comments made by Max, Brad and some others. I have owned a couple of Rottweilers whose lives I would save before I would save some humans I have met. And I would save any dog before I would pull Saddam Hussein or Adolf Hitler out a burning car. There are people here arguing that humans are superior to animals. Have you seen pictures of what is happening in Liberia these days? People argued that we are better because we have the capacity to reason. How do we know animals can't reason, if we can't communicate with them? I have met many people who did not display half of the intelligence that my dogs had. I am nowhere near being a PETA member. I wear leather, and I would fully support caning anybody caught throwing paint at someone else's mink coat that they worked hard to pay for. But I would also prefer to see scientific research performed on convicted murderers and rapists than on monkeys. By which reasoning process does one decide that a human life has more value? I would certainly say that the life of a person I care about has more value TO ME than that of an animal. But it also has more value to me than that of a person I do not know. It has more value by virtue of the fact that I have a relationship with that person, not because of its genetic makeup. By the way, question for the more religious people: if all creatures on earth are God's creatures, why would some have more value than others? No sarcasm here, I have never understood the logic behind this.

 

Oddly enough it seems to be because humans have the ability to reason.

Is that so valuable?

I don't know of a Canine World War (never mind Canine World War II....).

I don't see the dogs in Liberia killing each other.

Can't remember any dog ever detroying any high rise structures with an airplane.

There was also never a dog that led 6 millions cats to a gas chamber just because they weren't part of the Master Dog Race...

 

Yes, they all may be very difficult. But certainly not impossible.

http://www.touchturner.com/information.htm

I must admit, I don't know about the heat issue, though there are ways around that too. How about The Great Wall of China then?

The woman in the picture is the best example I could come up with off the 'net on short notice. I found other articles about others painting and such, but from her web site biography..
"JONI EARECKSON TADA
A diving accident in 1967 left Mrs. Tada a quadriplegic in a wheelchair, unable to use her hands. During two years of rehabilitation, she spent long months learning how to paint with a brush between her teeth. Her high detail fine art paintings and prints are sought after and collected.
Due to her best-selling books, beginning with her autobiography, Joni, as well as having visited 35 countries, Joni's first name is recognized around the world. World Wide Pictures' full-length feature film, JONI, in which Mrs. Tada recreated her own life, has been translated into 15 languages and shown in scores of countries around the world..." etc etc etc.

I do understand where you are going, and no, I don't think you are personally attacking me. I've tried to show here that life can still be worth living, even under such horrible conditions. The proof that it *can* be done is that others have. But you are right, the questions of "quality of life" and "worthwhile" remain. I personally think life is something worth striving for. I will continue to live, and I will not go until I cannot claw out that last breath as a tribute to my God, my species and myself. Everything in my being tells me it is better to live, to fight, than to die, to give up. Whether you look at it naturalistically, the basic instinct for survival, or religiously, the desire to not go until called, it all goes the same direction.

And do you know what the weirdest part about this whole conversation is to me? As a christian, I can't wait to die. Because of what I believe, if it was all about selfishness I'd punch that big red button, blow those explosive bolts, and get out the escape hatch. But it's not about me, or shouldn't be. There is so much to do, that I won't go until I'm dragged kicking and screaming. That's my hope, anyway.

(hmmm, there is *supposed* to be with this an image of a man and a woman, both in wheelchairs, on top of the Great Wall, but I don't know if it will come up...)

 

My $0.02.
[opinion]
Following the creation story in Genesis, humans are created 1. in God's image (not noted when the other animals are created) 2. specifically to worship and communicate with God. There is a lot of territory covered as to how humans are to worship (in song, actions, etc) that are not noted in relation to animals. Therefore, humans can have a *relationship* with God that the animals can not.

Does this mean that animals are not valuable? Should be abused? No way. All of God's creation should be cherished. In several cases God uses animals to help humans or chastise them, however God also instructs humans to use, and even kill, animals as part of their (God's and mankind's) relationship. So, if there is any different "value", it seems to lie in God's relationship with His creation.
[/opinion]

Papa, you may not believe/accept this, but from the *biblical* perspective does it at least make logical sense?