Race Strategy?

How was Hopkins a pro? He wasn't getting paid. And how come when we ran Toby Jorgensen on the same bike in the Spring and he didn't do anything of note, nobody cared? Ditto John-O Bowman. How were they different than Hopper? We didn't know what he was going to do, all we did was give him a shot. He entered he races he did to get track time and race experience. For that matter, how was Hopper at the ROC in 1999 different than CU at the ROC in 2000? His results were better so it's bad that he entered, or what? I thought it was a race, and the point was to do as well as possible.

I can't speak for Renfrow, but the concept of DQing yourself or pulling in from a race so some other guy you beat can win seems as weird to as a one-race Championshop, or maybe like racetrack affirmative action or something. If the only way I could win a race was for some guy to pull off, I don't think it would mean much to me.

I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. Although the yelling lady obviously made an impact on Hopper, because he didn't want to enter any of the CCS classes at the 2000 ROC.

JU

 

What makes someone a pro?
The year Hopkins won the Cup series it was only 4 races. He was to young to do AMA pro events, so does 4 races make someone a Pro?

My plan next year, as a first year expert, is to do a few WERA F2 National races, Try the AMA 250GP class at VIR and Mid-Ohio. Pace is also having 250GP classes next year, and I may do one.

I also plan to do WERA sportsman races. So if I were to do three or four Pro races and two or three Nationals, should I not be allowed to race Sportsman next year? Even if I suck but made the field?

If I go to the GNF and do well, would it be unfair? (BTW – for me to do well at Road A, all I have to do is finish the weekend with out crashing).

 

At the Club level, just showing up at ALL of the races will almost surely give you a Regional Championship.

 

I was gone half a day, and come back to another Ted Cobb debate. Can we f#cking stay off the subject for a little while? The BBS had become quite pleasant since all this bull$hit died down, but here we go again. And by the way, this Ted Cobb guy, does he talk? How come RHood is always arguing on his behalf? Just trying to get informed, as I don't know the players in this game.

 

Back to more interesting things (to those of us who actually had an interest in the original topic).

JU - I was thinking about a few more examples that prove that flamboyant race winners can be commercially more appealing than champions. I think Haga is a bigger draw than Colin Edwards. I may not get much support here, because this is America. But if you guys bother looking at other countries, you'll see what I mean. Frankie Chili has never won a championship, but also enjoys the kind of popularity sponsors dream about. John Kocinski has won championships... Why does Gobert keep getting factory rides when he's never won a championship outside Australia. And look at GP500: I would argue that Rossi, McCoy and even Biaggi are bigger draws than KRJR. Again, forget y'all are Americans for a minute, and look at it objectively. Meanwhile, Criville is a world champion. Everybody outside of Spain has already forgotten.

I am not trying to discount the importance of championships: just trying to make the point, again, that a big winner can make as much of an impact with the fans as a champion. Obviously, doing both, as Fogarty and Doohan did is a virtual assurance of immortality. I will admit that 10 years from now, when they're all retired, only the diehard fans will remember the guys who weren't champions. Others will refer to Motocourse and see that Criville won in 98, or that those two Italians won in the early 1980s.

 

That's the problem, there's no definition, and too much gray area.

Obviously the organizations can't make a ruling, so it's up to the rider. And no rider, that is getting bonuses from his sponsors, is going to bow out voluntarily.

 

I did show up to them all, but so did Nees. He and I swapped the lead from one weekend to the next. It was pretty stressful, but a tremendous exciting chess match at the same time.

 

The bottom line is, you can argue official or unofficial restrictions all you want, but there's no way to get anybody to agree on any of it, and the only way to deal with it is to step it up and beat all comers on the track.

If Renfrow shows up, beat him. I remember when an AFM guy named Jack Baker and his self-tuned TZ250 beat AMA Pro Steve Baker (no relation, a future World Champion, who showed up with his crew and tuner) at an AFM club race at Riverside California in the early-to-mid 1970s. I was the CN reporter at the race, and Jack Baker was in the headline and was the hero. If no-name Jack Baker had pulled in, famous Steve Baker could have won!

Screw affirmative action. Winners find a way to win. Whiners complain about winners.

JU

 

Originally posted by John Ulrich:
I thought it was a race, and the point was to do as well as possible.
I have to go back to my Karate analogy to answer this. I posted it earlier, so I'll save the bandwidth, but when should a white belt fight a belt?

I can't speak for Renfrow, but the concept of DQing yourself or pulling in from a race so some other guy you beat can win seems as weird to as a one-race Championshop, or maybe like racetrack affirmative action or something. If the only way I could win a race was for some guy to pull off, I don't think it would mean much to me.
He wins not by seconds, but minutes. There's just no competition most times, and he knows it.

I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. Although the yelling lady obviously made an impact on Hopper, because he didn't want to enter any of the CCS classes at the 2000 ROC.
Well you tell the little Hopper Man that I'm damn proud of his decision, and I salute him for it...even if it was based on a fear of old ladies.

 

Thiam1--

Yeah, valid points. But here and now, racing in the U.S., I'll take a Championship over race wins any day.

In 1996 I won the WERA 125cc Grand Prix National Challenge Championship. It's in the books, the Number One plate is hanging on my office wall. I only won one race, but was on the podium a lot, and my whole strategy was, "Get the points." A couple of kids won more races, but I was the Champion. I wouldn't trade that for the six-wins-total, four-straight-wins the second-place kid had, but I know he'd trade me for that Number One plate because it still burns him up!

JU

 

I guess you're also right. But it's interesting that you often seen champions saying "screw the championship, this year I want to win races" the year they get to wear the number 1 plate. Doohan said that, so did Mladin. What's your take on this? Do you think it's just an act? I've never been convinced by such statements.

 

TSR--

I used to race a guy who used football analogies all the time. We finally told him to go play football and leave us alone.

This is motorcycle racing, not karate. There are two divisions: Novice (or Amateur in CCS) and Expert. If you are a legal entrant in an Expert class, you have no obligation to pull in or somehow dumb-down your riding or sabotage your own performance to create an affirmative action program for slower riders. And slower riders have no basis to expect same.

When I started racing, most guys kicked my ass. After a while, some guys kicked my ass. After a while longer, I could run with guys who used to kick my ass, and, finally, I became competitive and started winning.

Same thing when I came back into racing in 1992 after retiring in 1985. In 1992 I sucked. In 1993 I wasn't so good. In 1994 I was 3rd in the WERA Series. In 1995 I was 2nd. In 1996 I was 1st. It's the natural order. But at no time did I expect the fast guys of the time, who were beating me by almost a lap in 1992 and 1993, to pull off. I just worked at getting up there, and I did.

JU

 

That is why I am psyched that Sean decided to give out #1 plates this year. It costs too much time and money to do a whole regional schedule, much less all the Nationals, I may never get the chance to win one again.

BTW, what ever happened to ROACH? He used to be on this board all the time before the GNF. He was one of the most vocal about the 250’s getting extra classes and regional chumps getting #1 plates. Is he still alive?

 

It depends on the guy. Mladin is Mladin, Doohan is Doohan, Kenny Roberts is Kenny Roberts. But when push came to shove, Mladin finished what, eighth, and Roberts what, seventh or eighth?

The other part of the "Get The Points" deal is, "if the opportunity to win comes to you, take it, but above all, Get The Points."

JU

 

Aww, I killed the thread. Damn! Sorry.

 

I'll revive it when I win a championship

 

hey sean could you tell me which one i am? i need to know so i dont upset anybody. thanx

 

Stick, now aren't you glad they didn't tell you needed to Win anything! (at least I won a regional endurance race that no one else showed up for

Now back to the original thread; championship, heck I'll settle for ONE race win at my age!

 

you and your pasta burner will have to fight me for it.

[This message has been edited by stickboy274 (edited 12-21-2000).]