Periodization for muscle gain and fat loss (another workout thread)

Discussion in 'General' started by Gino230, Nov 4, 2018.

  1. Gino230

    Gino230 Well-Known Member

    Since it's off season for all you poor saps that don't live in FL, I figured it was about time for another workout thread.

    I was listening to Joe Rogan the other day, he had Connor McGreggor's nutrition coach on. One thing he said:

    You can't be in an anabolic state and catabolic state at the same time. It's impossible. I.e. you can't lose fat and gain muscle simultaneously.

    This seems to make sense. You can increase muscle mass, by strength training and eating, which will change your BF percentage, but you haven't lost any fat.

    It got me thinking that I'm not working efficiently. Right now I lift 2x a week, then run or bike 3x a week. On my days that I do cardio (run / cycle) I usually run a calorie deficit. On my weightlifting days, I am even or slightly surplus on calories.

    So I decided to shift gears and focus on losing some fat. To me this means cardio and diet. But I don't want to lose too much muscle mass (don't have that much to begin with and I'm 44), so I have added a 1x a week weight workout where I try to hit all the major muscle groups. Squat, Deadlift, Bench, and Pullups.

    It got me thinking, how long does it take for the body to shift gears? Can you do it in one day? i.e. Cardio and calorie deficit on Monday, followed by Strength training and calorie surplus on Tuesday? Alot of the info on the web is just pure bullshit, written for women who don't want to do the work, or admit they are eating too much. What sayeth the beeb?
  2. Newsshooter

    Newsshooter Well-Known Member

    Really, so you can't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time? I'd say that's wrong, if you're burning calories you can certainly reduce fat content. How long are the workouts, seems like you just need to workout more. When I was in my 20's I tried to get big, lifted 6 days a week, gained about 15 lbs in a 18 months. Didn't get big, kept running, swimming, cycling, skiing, gymnastics too, so that probably had something to do with it. I did get a lot stronger, when I started I could bench about 150, and squat maybe a couple hundred. After that time I could bench 250 and squat 500 for multiple reps and easily run 6 minute miles at 175 lbs and I was under 10% body fat. Sometimes I ate healthy, sometimes not so much as I love pizza. :)
  3. 88/532

    88/532 Simply Antagonistical

  4. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds

    I think the failure for a lot of people is eating waaaaaay too many calories during their bulking phase. Bulking only needs to be a few hundred more calories than maintenance. There’s no need to be eating 5000 calories a day unless you wave your cut to be really difficult come spring.
    shakazulu12 likes this.
  5. Knotcher

    Knotcher Well-Known Member

    My guess is as you near top-level conditioning, it becomes more difficult to lose fat and gain muscle within the same month, making the statement effectively true. For people who aren't professional athletes or dedicated to fitness in a rare way, it probably isn't true except within a much shorter time frame.
    shakazulu12 likes this.
  6. SPL170db

    SPL170db Trackday winner

    I would guesstimate the only 2 caveats to this would be

    1) completely untrained and sedentary folks that have very little muscle to speak of and a surplus of fat. Given the proper workout and nutrition regimen I think it might be possible to do both (i.e. "noob gainz"). For an otherwise normally trained person not so much.

    2) someone who is on PEDs. They've done studies where people were placed on steroids and literally did nothing (no exercise at all), and their lean body mass increased and I believe also a slight reduction in body fat. This kind of laughs in the face of the whole "its all about the hard work" talking point when pro bodybuilders try to negate the paramount importance of drugs use as it pertains to their competitive success.
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
    JBraun and Gino230 like this.
  7. Dominic Pergolese

    Dominic Pergolese Custard Tidjle

    There are a lot of topics that you brought up, I'm going to focus on a few. If you want to maximize lean body mass retentions while at a caloric deficit you are going to be looking at one gram of protein per pound of body weight while maintaining lifts that are close to 80% of your 1 rep max.

    The second part of your question regarding a how quickly can the body change from anabolic two catabolic. It can happen in one day but if you have maximized your newbie gains your results will be impercevebly slow. You're better off being on a all-out bulk or cut and sticking with it. if you want more muscle mass you're going to need to be at a caloric Surplus. It is especially helps if you are at a caloric Surplus throughout the day so you have the metabolic energy to support muscle protein synthesis. If you want to lose fat you're going to be better off being at a caloric deficit all day. trying to go back and forth every other day makes you a binge eating teenage girl and just like that girl you are going to be more frustrated by your lack of progress. What you are trying to do is called recomping and it is slow.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    Gino230 likes this.
  8. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds

    I really want to talk about keto, but....

    Gorilla George likes this.
  9. pickled egg

    pickled egg Art is subjective

    I did a sit up.

    To reach the bowl of ice cream I set on the back of the couch.
    cav115, badmoon692008 and TLR67 like this.
  10. In Your Corner

    In Your Corner Dungeonesque Crab

    I'm still trying to decide if I want to go for more buff than ripped or more ripped than buff.
  11. Gino230

    Gino230 Well-Known Member

    I think in my present condition (195lb and 18% body fat) I want to focus on fat loss. So I will be running a caloric deficit while trying to maintain a relatively high protein intake, and continue to lift one day a week. But my main focus in the coming months will be running and cycling. (Tis' the season for this in south FL anyway.) I don't know what 160g of protein looks like off the bat, I will look at my food diary and see what I have been taking in. Probably less than that.

    I just got back into lifting real weights (not 25lb hotel dumbbells) about 1.5 years ago. My body composition definitely changed. Although I am about 7 lbs heavier now, I'm 5-6% leaner. So the "newb gain" phase is about over. Also, at 44, I am not going to do any 1 rep work. I do however have a trainer that helps keep me challenged, by the second or third set on compound movements (squat, bench) I am struggling to get the 6-8th rep in. So probably close to the 80% 1RM number.

    I am not taking any drugs or supplements, although I did get tested about 12 months ago and my T is 538, so not too bad! My SHBG is high though, and I've not found anything about lowering it other than taking vitamins which contain Boron or Zinc. Magnesium levels are ok, and Vitamin D levels are pretty good, but there is room for improvement. I did have one guy tell me that high SHBG can be an indicator that you are taking in too many carbs / sugars, but I have not found anything to back that up.
  12. Gino230

    Gino230 Well-Known Member

    I have seen those studies. doesn't really apply to me, as I am not on them and don't plan on being on them unless something changes drastically (i.e. my pituitary explodes or something.)

    I don't think at 44 I will be making crazy gains, but one thing I CAN control is my body fat percentage, and I would like it to be lower. I don't want to become the skinny old runner type, though. I want to preserve what I've got muscle wise.
  13. SPL170db

    SPL170db Trackday winner

    Yup, once you've been in the game for as many years staying naturally its not very realistic to expect huge gains anymore. The only changes I see these days in maybe more detail in certain muscle groups if I focus more on them for a few consecutive months through the year as I diet down (i.e. more detail in my back, better separation in my quads etc etc). But yeah, the only things thats going to keep you from becoming that skinny runner looking old man is to keep your diet 100% (or at least like a 90/10, 80/20) on point and lifting heavy (smartly) if you plan is to keep it natty for the long run (same as me).

    My weight doesn't really fluctuate more than maybe 5-7lbs all year, the only thing that really changes is my body composition.....and needless to say (I think) I actually look bigger when I'm lighter in weight since I'm more lean and detailed and scrutinizing my diet more consistently.
  14. cajun636

    cajun636 Honda Junkie.

    I’m about to turn 42. And you saw what works for me.

    Realistically you haven’t hit your new guy plateau yet. Not as far as weight lifting goes. I just recently started lifting heavy again which for me is heavy heavy since I am a powerlifter at my core. But at our age, heavy weight gets old.

    It’s timing. You can absolutely burn fat and gain muscle. It’s all timing and the type of food you put in your body. Find a plan. Make a date. Stick to it. Take pictures
  15. rocalotopus

    rocalotopus thick member

    you fix up your T yet? otherwise, this convo is a waste of time
    Gorilla George likes this.
  16. It is true, you can't put on muscle mass while shredding fat at the same time. In order to put on muscles, you need to remain in an anabolic state. To shred fat, you need to be in a catabolic state. The two states can't exist simultaneously.

    BUT...don't discredit weightlifting's ability to help you lose fat. Contrary to popular belief, shredding fat isn't all about cardio.

    1. It takes more calories to sustain muscle than fat. In other words, the more muscles you have, the more calories you burn, even while at rest.
    2. When your muscles are recovering from a workout, your metabolism is higher, which means you are burning more calories.

    If you compare 1hr of cardio to 1hr of weightlifting, you will burn more calories in that particular hour while doing cardio. But several hours after lifting weights, you are still burning calories.

    Diet is the most important thing, you can't out-train a shitty diet.

    While you can't bulk up while shredding fat, you CAN lose fat while maintaining muscle (and possibly even gain a few lbs of muscle, if you do it right and know your body well).

    1. Make sure you get 0.75-1g of protein per pound of bodyweight. It helps to get some amino acid supplements. As long as you have sufficient protein/aminos in your system, it will prevent your body from breaking down muscle tissue into amino acids, then into glycogen for energy.
    2. Keep lifting weights, but stay in the 10-15 rep range. No need to "max out".
    3. Incorporate cardio at least 3-4x a week (personally I do cardio 6-7 days a week).
    4. Drink plenty of water (aim for a gallon a day).
    5. Get plenty of rest/sleep.
    6. Cut out all the bullshit. No cokes, candy, pizza, cheeseburgers, ice cream, and all the unnecessary shit like that.
    7. Watch your portion sizes. Lose the idea of "you need to clean your plate". No, you don't. You don't need to eat so much that you feel full/bloated after each meal.
    8. Drink 20oz of water 20min before each meal. This will help trick your hypothalamus into thinking you are full, so you wont eat as much. It also aids in digestion.

    You can do weights and cardio in the same day. Do cardio first thing in the morning, then weights in the afternoon (that is what I do). If you do that, eat right, get rest, and drink plenty of water, you will see a change in your body composition. Don't pay attention to the scale, pay attention to how you look in the mirror and how your clothes fit. You may very well weigh the exact same thing after 2 months, but your body composition will change drastically.
    MikeR, beac83, cajun636 and 1 other person like this.
  17. Gino230

    Gino230 Well-Known Member

    Did you read what I posted above? You think 538 is low? Not being a smartass, I'm just legitimately asking. I don't think it's the T level that's holding me back....
  18. Gino230

    Gino230 Well-Known Member

    Dude, when you stayed with me in VIR it was all energy drinks, ring dings, etc! I know you don't eat like that every day..... Do you have a specific diet plan you stick to? Tracking calories / macros?
  19. TX Joose

    TX Joose Well-Known Member

    I have to disagree .You can lose fat and gain muscle simultaneously..but it isn't easy. I've done it on multiple occasions and trained a few folks that were able to do it as well .
  20. Fonda Dix

    Fonda Dix Well-Known Member

    I would be suicidal at 538. Others would be a beast. There is no set number. Everybody is different.

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