anybody wanna start an endurance team

I'd give out advice and actually am a bit upset at myself if I misconstruded that you were wanting my advice. This is going to sound ghey, but I appologize if you were wanting suggestions.

I guess I misread some of your responses. I can certainly give out suggestions and what seemingly worked for us and what I learned from being around quite a few great teams.

I really think you have a great idea. I just really want the new racers to be more aware of what's going on. Too many jump right into a deal and never research it out well. Hell, I've done it and even after being "seasoned". I wanted to give out info that had (like you refered) you AND other racers thinking it out more.

Maybe my stirring of the pot, per say did cause a few to think it through a bit more. It had you doing it. Now, if you want any suggestions or ideas, I am game - I just don't know if here is a good idea.

Fast Freddy may be ready to blow his load, I mean, be ready to shoot his wad, wait, I mean send a missle out after me...whatever.

 

lizard, i just gotta laugh...
wouldn't that have been much easier than being an unappreciated chef in the kitchen stirring the pot?
i guess you thought you were "doing right" by pompously pontificating from a podium you no longer stand on but, it doesn't come across very well. (okay, i'm done with the smart-ass comments).
i don't have a hard-on for ya...i really, really, really disliked the idea of you, for lack of better words, bashing his program. that's all i was about.

i rode for lonewolf last year. i ate off his plate. i paid my share. his inaugural endurance season was a big endeavor, out-of-pocket, for one guy. we had ups and downs throughout the season. who didn't?

dave's program is basically the same as last year's, as i understand it. newer equipment, a season of endurance experience under his belt and a commitment to do it better enters the equation as positive factors.

to pose a question about dave's upcoming season, given someone (sponsor, team owner, rider) has to pay for it and 'A' riders are not available....do you not think $6500 per rider (three man team) for a season of endurance racing is a deal?

seriously, please...from your experience. keep in mind, cash and the risks of competition are the rider's only worries.

ps. all offensive weapons have been placed in stand-down.

 

Nah, not mellow. It's just funny how racing with the guys in the AMA Pro series changes your perspective on the petty stuff

Have fun this year, and I promise I'll stop lurking

 

DUDE!!!
i didn't recognize ya(wasn't readin' the tag lines).
whattaya doin' in the desert? is that permanent?
...and NO! we can't all get along...not initially, anyway.
:up:

seems like lotsa peeps movin' to the desert, lately. i loved it out there.

 

Honestly, $6500 for the year is getting off cheap by a rider. Of course, if you want podium finishes, you're going to have to get riders that aren't going to be paying. You COULD pay for someone, but as a second year team, I doubt that to be an option.

Since it is his second year, I think splitting costs is definately a suggestion. Hell, we were spending almost $40k a year to do the series and we had serious support. Well, not like Vesrah has, but we were well taken care of. So, we had 4 riders with 3 primaries and a fourth "floater". So, we all spent close to $10k each. So, $6500 is pretty fair.

One thing is contingency. You definately ahead to pay for a newer bike as the contingency can help the expenses. Do EVERYTHING you can to get as much money via race placings to keep the wheels rolling.

That's all just barely scratching the surface, of course, but I guess I was getting a little upset at the fact that it sounded like you guys were just floored riders expected to ride for free or ride for a fee. It is certainly not in the budget for smaller teams, but guys like AOD, Vesrah, etc. are either employing riders or have riders (aka "ringers") that aren't paying a share to race. They are there to get results and podium finishes.

It's a thing that needs to be done in order to win anymore. It used to be a deal where a few guys formed a team and they raced. It got to the point where a team was starting to fall behind or there was a threat to another team winning and the ol' ringers started to come out. We stuck to our guns and we all rode as friends like we started the season and NEVER had a ringer come in. Of course, our competition couldn't say the same...

 

$6500 to $10000 a year per person? Wow, good thing I'm slow and ride a Honda!

As a team, we could do the whole year for less than $10000!

 

No, you can't...I bet you a dollar.

Post up your budget. Hell, if it works, I'll buy it from you for $500

 

good luck with that. was you going to race or just watch for that money

 

Let's see, practice on take-offs.

Race on one set of tires, I'm slow...

Hotels are free, so we REALLY take advantage of the breakfast bar.

When I'm doing southern rounds, bikes get transported for free and we will get free race gas.

Oh yea, I'll fly to all the rounds (except northern rounds) for free.

My rental cars are free.

Beg Deals Gap or another team to transport a bike across the Mississippi for Western rounds.

For Northern rounds defray my transportation cost by upgrading my rental car to something that can tow (which I know most rental companies won't allow towing, but hey, they keep the tow packages active on most SUV's) and at least two tanks of gas will be on my company

So that just leaves oils, brakes and entry fee's divided by three riders!

Where is my $500?

 

Nice try...it has to work for _me_ in order to want to buy it. I dont' get to fly, stay, and transport my bike all over the country for free, and neither does anyone else in WERA...you are very fortunate in that regard.

If all of that transportation is free, then yes, I see how you have a remote shot at staying under $10,000. However, there are several problems.

1. I dont' care how slow you are, you're not doing every endurance round on one set of tires. Did you see how many 6 hour races there are this year?

2. How does the rest of your team get around? Is that free too?

3. I crashed my 600 last week, and all I did for damage was a rearset, a clipon, a slider, a fairing stay, and bodywork. $1,000 later I'm back in action. That would be 10% of your entire budget for the year. If the bike had bent, it could easily ave been $2,000 to fix it.

Anyway, good luck, for real. Have fun!

 

thanks, mr. lizard. i, for one, like that kinda talk. in hindsight, maybe it was good you came across hard, at first...lends good cred to your current comments.

the difficulties encountered when trying to start up my own team in '04 were more than i cared to suffer. i'm kinda a primo-donnie, it's my attitude-not my ability, and if it ain't right, i ain't doin' it. dave's effort is right enough for me but, a get-off at the end of the '05 season left me unsure whether i'd be much use at the start of a new season. so, reluctantly, i asked dave not to count me in. the healing process started lookin' good when, out-of-the-blue, someone else offered me a spot. i accepted cuz dave's effort seemed to be on track. then, his guys bailed. i guess they weren't serious about it and left dave in the lurch. otherwise, i'd be glad to share the racin' with dave, again.

i had a sprint effort in '03 that was quite rewarding...costs? astronomical. (a duc didn't get much in the way of contingency, etc). that was one of the reasons i went with dave last year. it was a lot cheaper than my one-ring sprint circus.

as a team, the thought was that if a rider were paying, they'd be more committed to the effort. (paying for riders is not in the budget). that thought might have been good in theory but, dave has a very unenviable position, now.

i hope dave's efforts don't go to waste. he's put forth...making sacrifices so his riders don't have to. the least a rider for a small team could do is help, you'd think.

 

Hey Doctor, a lot o teams will run a six hour on one set of tires. Unless your running the top times most would not benefit from the lower lap times a new rear would bring verses the time it takes to change a tire on a SS bike.

YMMV

 

1. We did Grattan and Summit on one set of tires. Placed fourth in class both races and even earned a little tire money.

2. Team split into regions. Two guys for Southern rounds and two guys for northern rounds. How they get to the races is there penny.

3. We ran two bikes. We crashed four times. My three crashes only cost me one shifter, one rear brake lever and one front brake lever. Because I'm on a budget I don't care about paint and if the gas tank isn't dented to bad we will run with it.

One of my teammates FUBAR'ed a bike at Barber. Sucked not having a back up bike but we managed. But yes, that bike is still in pieces, luckily I had aquired a crashed bike a couple years ago so I'll be able to swap a lot of parts over. I'll have to buy a gas tank, exhaust can and all the control levers for it. Not bad considering the extent of the damages. Plus you must remember I run a F4i so parts are plenty and very cheap to aquire. And the frame on the F4i is very strong, I never heard of anyone bending one yet!

But yea, cost can sky rocket in a hurry with a bit of bad luck.

 

If you're running one set of tires in a 6 hour and not changing at least a rear, you're not competitive enough to worry about getting close to the top in this series. You need to do a rear unless it is an SV. Under your mentality, why bother? Do track days or just sprint regionally. Your track time would be better spent than in endurance. The cost of maintaining and endurance bike is high and if you're not wanting to give it your all, you're better off not destroying a bike "just 'cause".

Your game plan should ALWAYS be have a set of spare rims with tires available just in case no matter if it is a 4 or 6 hour. Things happen and those prepared for it, succeed.

What happens if you get the bike up on the gator strips and chunk the rear out? What happens if it rains? What happens if the suspension isn't properly set and you toast a rear in 2 hours of a 6 hour event?

You gotta plan and the way the series works, you have to have at least three sets. If they are take-offs, you bought them to begin with so that is a cost.

Things most teams don't factor or actually don't do that they need to:

-Rebuilds on bikes. Motors, crash damage, regular maintanence. It is all higher than any sprint bike will see. Count the total number of hours your sprint bike is on the track in one year. Not even REMOTELY close to an endurance season. You'd race years before you equalled a season of endurance racing. You will need to do serious maintaining...
-Suspension freshening front and rear
-Maintanence costs for truck pulling trailer to races
-Gas to and from track
-Food - even if you pack food, it's an expense
-Oil, filters, grease, wax, etc. that is put towards the bike/s for a season
-Hotel stays. If free, great. If you camp, it still is a cost to do that.
-Little shit like numbers, paint, etc. The stuff we get free sometimes and others, it is so little a cost, we forget.
-Time off work. May be a vacation day, but if anyone gets 10 weekends or even just 10 Fridays off, you're blessed. Otherwise, if you absorb your vacation for racing and need off for Christmas or something else later, you need to incure that loss somewhere...

That's all excluding the fact that you need the essentials like tires, fuel, entry fees, etc., etc. The list is so damn long that if you honestly think you'll make a season on $10k, we will only see you half a season - if that.

 

+1 Lizard. :up:

One of my favorite aspects of endurance racing was the evolving strategy as the race progressed. Everyone has a rosy game plan going in but, in my experience, something changes that almost immediately once the flag drops. To capitalize your team must be prepared! Covering that many bases takes thought, experience, preparation, and in alot of cases money. We put forth a pretty modest effort, by comparison, and breezed right on through the $10K level. Perhaps the same results could have been had cheaper the next season with the experience we gained. But who ends a season looking to maintain their position except #1?

I'll say this though: The hidden costs of endurance racing were all off the track for us.

 

Sorry Lizard, I really don't agree with you. I've learned more in one endurance race than I have in three years of track days. IMO, an endurance race is the safest way to increase your skill at the track. What other venue are you going to get that much talent in one race?

And as long as you keep your engine bone stock, maintenance should be minimal. Hell, we raced my old street bike that had over 23,000 miles on it. Just for the record we do keep an extra tire and rains just in case so we aren't that naive.

Winning is nice, however most teams can't afford the latest and greatest fast parts and equipment. What is wrong with going out there and having fun and cherishing the time on the track with your buddies and the fast guys? I did the math also, two one hour stints in an endurance race is much cheaper than doing track days!

Chill out Lizard! Sit back and relax. When was the last time you raced just for fun? I seen a few teams that had self destructed when the race went wrong for them. The tension and animosity between them was just too high. Sorry, but that just isn't fun when your spending that much money!

Don't make me drag you to Jennings with me

 

'03 sprint expenditures: (not to include initial bike purchase and engine failures).

accomodations. yeah, i sluffed it, not.
$3264.91
riding gear.
$3635.38
race fuel
$1002.02
license, entry fees.
$1360
parts. includes initial bike build-ducati sbk.
classified
service. includes trailer mods, special tools, pit/track accessories
classified
tires, oil, chemicals.
$4474.71
other. just start adding random figures.
$+
total.
well into 5 digits+

result?
i don't have a hosted pic of my "sponsor thank you" ad, so...
a buncha cool pictures, trophies and four broken ribs.

i did not account for tow vehicle fuel, insurance, maintenance, etc.

 

classified = obscene?

 

yeah. real horror show.:wow:
...put the tentative $20000 budget in the hole 2.5 times.

 

There's no question you'll learn more at a WERA endurance race than doing a track day. My point was that under your laid back attitude, you might as well do a track day or regional sprint series instead of destroying a bike via hours of abuse.

You really have no idea. If you took a bike with that many miles on it and ran the endurance, you should have taken the motor completely down to freshen it up. Hell, if you were just running sprints, you should have done that. Maintanence is crucial. You can get by on slacking off, but eventually, you'll get bitten HARD. Plus, it's a safety issue, too. I certainly wouldn't ride for a team that was that laid back on their machines...

If you want to have fun and create Kodak moments, go to the Fastraxx series and run their endurance. The level out in the WERA series is top notch. Much higher pace than any local series and yes, it can be fun to a newer team, but this is serious business.

Sure, a track day can cost more - not by much, but you shouldn't look at it that way. First, you're not grasping my point that the bike needs MAJOR attention. Trust me, we got off a bike last year that had POOR attention mechanically and we paid dearly for it. We could have finished MUCH higher in the points had there been attention to what the bike needed mechanically. Again, even if you have a "don't care, wanna have fun attitude", it still needs to be safe. Ever been on a bike when the engine failed? Ever been behind a bike that drops a piston or such? I don't want to be behind you on your 23k miles and inproper bike maintanence.

I had a conversation once with a team owner concerning fun. We agreed that in the pits, on the pit lane, after the race - whatever - it can be fun. BIG fun. HOWEVER, when the face shield is down, it is all seriousness. I don't want to be around a rider who is happy, go lucky and not giving a shit - they're just enjoying the scenery. Stay out of my way. This shit can kill you. I've seen my fair share of dead racers and I don't want anymore.

Sounds severly hard core, but those are the facts. You guys were well in the back in the series. I am not being mean, but you really don't have the experience from being up top or in the top ten to understand what it takes to be there. Hell, just being in the top ten overall is a major undertaking anymore. The teams are very solid and have serious set-ups. This isn't a game of Scrabble.

Again, you might want to check out Bob Stanley and his Fastraxx deal at Nelson Ledges. They surround themselves on the idea of having fun. Get your feet wet there and THEN come back and you'll understand what I am getting at.