Hmmm ... Laurie's had too much grog? Speechless but laughing her butt off. I wonder what's on her mind?
I agree with Pavel. I've been to 4 races so far and enjoyed them all, and not just because my brother races. The latest Summit Point outing was the only one I came out ahead on, and that's hardly worth mentioning. Sure, I'd love it if I made enough each time for a new lens, but that's not gonna happen with the exposure I get, the time I can put towards it, and the audience I'm trying to cater to. This is not my day job - just something I choose to put some time towards when I get a chance. I have no problem following the rules and keeping notification/announcement posts in the Classified section (even though it gets much less traffic than the General area). If I made enough on a regular basis from shooting at the track, I would have no problem taking out an ad for a month or two to support you guys. Don't take any of this as a complaint - just another perspective. Your sandbox, your rules.
Dude. Mongo has been doing this racing thing for years... his experience kung-foo has no equal. Even if photography isn't his bag Daddio. Submit, or die. And no, he's not bullying you, it's just that he can't hear you over the sound of how AWESOME he is.
Hey tristan. Would you be up for an event where we all team up and give photos for donations to the fund ... in exchange for expenses (and beer - gotta have beer!)? It could just work out for all - don't you think?
So let's see if I got this straight. Several photographers cover the same event and you're all upset that when a few hobbyists post their private stuff here, we're taking your business away? Sounds more like market saturation amongst yourselves to me. I think your beef is with Mr. Darwin. Besides, I never see any photographer types working at night!
i DO work at Night! haaaa. ohh - you mean take pictures at night? You racers are in beddy-bye by 9PM - sorry, i don't sneak peek into yer trailers and tents uninvited. Actually, all the photogs on here ARE HOBBYISTS. I don't think any of us make our living taking pictures of racers. If any, Brian Nelson makes money professionally from Teams and magazines from his photographs. We all got into taking pictures of racers because we started taking pictures of our Buddy racer...and then we get asked if we got any other pictures of others. So while we're out there snapping away of our Buddies, we may as well catch a bunch of other people. Out of the goodness of my heart, I may give away a picture or two to a racer who asks. But when it comes to giving away to 20-50 racers - I may be easy but ah ain't cheap no more. Not a problem if someone wants to showcase their photo to others here, especially when a new photog comes on the scene and wants a chance to be known. But yes -where does the line draw from being very enthusiastic about a shot to share, vs keep looking and you'll find something you wanna buy from me. So once everybody knows you as a "track photographer", and has paid you for a photo, you no longer can showcase your photo in this section, as that would be considered advertising. That's ok with me and i certanly will abide by the rules, but I don't want to have to fear the Mongo-ban if I happen to reply to somebody's question Where can I find pictures? It should be taken as a simple - go HERE and you'll find pictures. We ALL advertise free in some form here - look at your signature lines, look at your stickers on your bikes, leathers...everybody tells somebdy where to go look for stuff all the time. The value of a photograph is to the Subject and to the photographer. All other is fleeting only for the moment, and then forgotten thereafter, and its value diminished. There are enough tracks and racers for all photographers to go around. Yes - other than the one time we started, we're going to want some compensation for the work behind taking pictures. Beer costs! I hope you racers will understand that. Your race tires are a necessity, and you will pay for tires. Photos are not necessary, but if you want a few good ones as keepsakes for later down the years - you can pay us for them too. Welcome to America, land of Opportunity and Capitalism. :up: We've got thousands of pictures of racers in leathers, helmets on bikes at tracks. To the average person, you all look alike after a couple shots. WHO ELSE would want pictures of you?!?! but YOU and your family? every once in a while, JU might ask for a couple for RRW. So yes, this Forum was the perfect outlet to let you all know where we have pictures for you. Not my intention to take up the whole General section posting photos after photos - just a thread to let people know where to go find pictures after an event. If I don't ever take another picture of a roadracer, it wouldn't bother me one iotta. But I would still go to races, hang out and enjoy the company and carnival of the sport. And for the photogs here on the BBS, I think that's really what it's all about. Our passion is not racing the bikes, but showcasing the sport through what we can do best at the events - photographing you. Yes - when i'm ready to quit my night job and make a living out of taking photos of roadracing at every event, i certainly WILL be glad to pay for vendor advertising: banners, logos, promotions, track announcements, giveaways, umbrella girls, the whole nine-yards... but it is JUST a hobby, and hopefully reciprocal as a service/favor for everyone. Give and take here and there - we all be happy. --- End of Novel --- Q: Why not change the section "Race Reports" into "and Photos? so everybody can post photos freely there with their race reports by events?
you go girl Dang Roo, you sure do have a lot pinned up in there.:up: I want to thank you ALL for the pic you have given me in tha past. You're right, we do want photos of ourselves. James
! It's been a while since I posted, but as an ex photographer (Shoot To Thrill Photo) I was interested in this thread. A few things that I'd like to comment on are as follows: 1. Sean makes the rules. A yearly WERA photography pass was necessary, as was paying a vendor fee at most every event. (when we were shooting it was approx. $150.00 paid to the track) If I recall correctly, ALL photos taken at any WERA event were supposed to be made available to WERA. WERA is not in business to support anyone but WERA. If you're doing this under the guise of a "hobby", I call BS. 2. Track photographers are there to make money. Don't kid yourselves. It's a rather large investment to be a successful track photographer. I raced for 2 yrs. and have been riding for over 20. I've had 26 bikes. I love motorcycles. I love photography. I combined the two because there was a business opportunity. We were successful as a business because we had a solid committment to customer service and we played by the rules. We also had a lot of fun, accepted feedback, listened and learned. I'd like to think that we actually stepped it up a notch in track photography....but hey, that's just my opinion. 3. Give back to the sport. When we were in business, we sponsored racers. We made a conscious effort to support the folks that supported us. Vicky from VHS is a fine example of someone who is currently doing this. There are so many ways to give back to the sport...not just take from it. 4. If you choose to affiliate yourself as a business within the WERA circle, you do so at your own risk, at your own cost, and knowing full well that WERA or the track can ask you to leave at any time. Isn't that what happened to Bob B.? He pissed enough people off and that was that. This has been my opinion.
Ok, I was going to stay out of this but this is the way it is. It's WERA's company. WERA makes the rules. If it wasn't for WERA, we wouldn't be out there making money. It's true and you know it. If you are going to sell at the track or on the WERA board, which includes handing out business cards or telling people to go to your site to purchase pictures, pay the freaking vendor fee. If you sell, you're a vendor. If you can't afford the vendor fee, don't show up. Yes, my husband raced for years so I know both sides. It's costs a lot to race, that's why I sponsor several racers with pictures or whatever they need. It costs a lot to take pics and that's why I sell. Everyone needs to quit whining and follow the rules. It's not that hard.
Freaking self interest ... sorry to say. lets get something straight. Nobody in their right mind, especially if they have a business degree would think getting outfitted for wera photography is any business decision. Even Vicki, after ten years of being known can't come close to being able to do only this for income. And at 400 pictures on a cd for 60 bucks .... no wonder. Go check out the other aspects of photography where it does make sense because they are still the areas where the floor has not gone out from it due to newbies who shoot for the glory first and then want to make a few pennies later. Types like Daryl talbot just don't get it. NOBODY here is complaining about there being no money. Wake up. I've said it before ... it is not about making money. It is about making back 80 percent of your expenses back. I give up money from what I normally shoot - and a lot of it. Due to it being FUN! Now let me type this real slow so the aforementioned can perhaps go AHH! There is a fine distinction here. We are complaining that a few folks dont get it ... that we don't much see the bussiness point here. We are complaining that people all over the track come up to us and ask us where to get their pictures. I only see this forum as a place to let you guys know where you can get the stuff. If more racers bought ... then prices will drop. Roo monitor the hits so I know how many find us. We have an iterest plain and simple to make back the money spent in getting there. End of story. How do I get it across to some of you that I can do three hours at a wedding, make 2600 bucks and edit for three hours. I don't book race weekends - but I don't want to go in the hole for $600 bucks neither. I have my kids, who live three hours away and I see every third week with me for their three week summer stint. And what am I doing .. on this fourth of July for four hours? I'm captioning your shots so you can get your pictures this week. Well to hell with it. I will caption them, so I can run a query to find the ones JU at RRW wants. The rest can wait for a few weeks. Heck, I only wanted to do this for the chance that the Local city Paper (who I sometimes shoot for) might run a story on Road Racing and North Carolina Racers. You guys don't know it - but Roo has been trying to slip that in for over a year. Sometimes it seems like a green flag is given ... and then it turns into another disappointment. But you guys don't know how tenacious Roo is. I saw how much fun I had. So it grew. But stop telling me how rich we are getting. I makes me laugh, and then due to some folks attitude make me ticked off. So to recap. Money? You gotta be kidding right. Fun? You betcha. Daryl and JonnyB seems to applaud at the idea of cheap or free. He would stop smiling if he was dragging a hot dog cart to another city and selling hot dogs to pay for the trip and some rich twit parks beside him and gives the hot-dogs away. And all the while he did it as a favor anyways. Now here is another fine distinction. Roo and I are on the other side. We are the ones who WANTED to give the shots away for free. Remember folks? We DID! Then we saw Vicki and a few others who seem to be wanting this to make money. So we started to sell at similar prices for prints except I wont sell pictures for advertising without rights management. I will be happy to GIVE them away. But that makes it hard, with economic theory being at all right to imagine there will be photographers at any event in a few years, except for the brand new guys. Sorry to say ... but I sure can see a difference between a Tony Brown shot ... and the guy with a new canon rebel and a 200 dollar lens. Kind of like the difference between watching Ben Spies going around the corner and .... well you know what I'm trying to say. So ... After this race (sorry Roo) I'm going to change strategies. Back to the original intent. This is going back to fun. That is what we had planned this time around anyhow and somehow shot as if we had a duty to catch all the racers still. I've got about 4000 shots that made the grade. Down from 9000 when we wanted to make sure all as many guys as possible were covered. That takes me about 40 hours editing captioning and uploading (I pay for each upload) if I don't want the shots to look just like all the others. Next race, we are going down, mingle with friends first and shoot only those bikes that catch our attention or are in the first three of each race. That is what gets more likely to get published. Or I will sit at a corner and simply not shoot and wait instead for the crashes. Mags want those too. Those that I do shoot will be the top names, my buddies at the track who get me beer and cigars, a few racers who ask and Wera corner workers - who have been fantastic. Any corner worker who sees a shot on the site - don't buy it ... just send me an email and you can have the file for free. Any dogs in the shot ....ditto. The rest of you ... if I can work out with daveK ( or I guess Mongo .. but I talked to Dave about this much earlier) will have to donate to the air fence fund to get any shots. I hope that makes you all happy - it should. Perhaps that way nobody will piss me off by telling me that I'm a liar and getting rich here. Might as well do it for only good clean hobby purposes. I hope that way each of you feel better about buying a shot, that it serves a better purpose (I saw first hand how that air fence made a difference this time around) and I can relax more trackside. If it gets hot and I've got a few shots already ... I'm not going to get heat stroke anymore like last year. So while I'm still in rant mode ... I just want to let my personal opinion on matters of photographic style be known. TonyBrown .... you are the Man! Your shots stand out far above the rest of us. Keep it up man! (/end of indiscretion) Oh ... and I had no problem posting in the other place ... except that with pics of any sort posted here ... even less people would find the others. But I didn't care much at that point anyhow. My life does not revolve around this. Now to find those RRW shots ... and out to go enjoy the day. (Sorry Roo ... but I think your with me on this anyhow. You got tired of this except as fun anyhow, right? )
