Just a reminder to cornerworkers. Waving yellow means no passing. First racer to see waving yellow should assume that there is something dangerous ahead and ride accordingly. I was in the F-500 race at VIR when a corner-worker began waving a yellow flag. I slowed a bit to see what was around the corner and was passed by 3 riders. It was the last lap and the three riders finished ahead of me. I had passed at least one of them 3 laps earlier after alot of hard work. Ended up losing points and since the corner-worker did not confirm they had passed, the results were not changed. All the racers that passed apologized and confirmed they passed under a waving yellow. Rain Director investigated and advised me that though the riders confirmed the illegal pass, he couldn't change the result without the cornerworker's confirmation. Should I just ignore waving yellows in the future? Fred
One of those riders is a friend of mine and he really felt awful about what had happened. Thankfully he wasn't racing in your class to take points away from you. I think maybe the rules need to be addressed and possibly changed. If you and all three riders agreed as to what happened, that's all that really should be necessary to change the race results. Maybe we should take that burden off of the shoulders of the cornerworkers because they have enough to worry about out there. I'm sure the cornerworker was more focused on the reason why the yellow flag needed to be waved rather than what incidents transpired because of it. I know we had a shortage of cornerworkers that weekend and let's face it... they aren't paid professionals who make their living by cornerworking. They do us a huge favor by spending the entire day in the hot sun so that we can race. I'm just grateful that they're there.
Yeah, Eric was the first guy to apologize, class act. The other guys also apologized and were quite honest about it. Vintage racers are good folks.
Oh, Eric was behind me in the V-2 race (different race) when I lost my gear shift lever. Apparently it just missed his helmet as it flew off. Tell him someone found it and that I now have double safety wire on it. Ciao, Fred
The person that passed you should have helped you get your positoin back. I have had that happen to me but I was already committed to a pass and went through,but I pulled to the side and waved him back by.At least you make it right with the guy you passed!
Yes, that would have been the correct thing to do, but talking to one of the guys he said since the other guys didn't do it, he felt stupid doing it, i.e. letting me back by.
boaide- Unfortunately, we were a "little" light in the numbers department for corner-workers at VIR. If I were to take action on your report and that of the other competitors, I'd open up a can of worms. The rule specifies that a competitor cannot make a protest on passing/being passed on a waving yellow flag. Sorry I couldn't do more within the rules. George THE Rain Director [This message has been edited by Rain Director (edited 08-28-2001).]
Though you referred to the corner worker as a "she" I'm certain you didn't mean me - I've never worked at VIR. What I've always wondered about passing under the waving yellow is if it was passing when, say, bike 1 came by, then by the time bike 2, 3 and on came by the situation had changed from waving to stationary, but bike 1 was still in the turn and got passed by bikes 2, 3 and on because *they* didn't get the waving, what do we do? The only solution I've come up with is try to wait until there a break in the bikes to change the flagging status, but that doesn't always work. And, as for not seeing passing under waving, I'll admit that I'm usually focused on the bikes coming at me, trying to make sure they saw me (some faint signal) so they know there's something going on. When I have seen passing under waving lately they've been so far past the station that I couldn't see the numbers. But, I don't have to worry about you vintage guys much; a more well mannered group on the track you'll never find!
Another can of worms: I have observed a tendency in the past years for using a waving yellow when an incident is far off the track, but is in what is being called an "impact area." Other than that, there is no other reason for a waving yellow, which is called for when there is an incident or incident(s) on the track that needs you attention. Avoidance proceedures may be necessary. I have always wondered by corner workers, a bike and a rider 75 feet off the track surface would require avoidance proceedures to those who are still on the track. To me, this is a situation that requires a stationary yellow. How would you make a call for passing under waving yellow when the incident is not on the track surface?? Maybe I will move this to the General thread. I know the corner workers will have a few comments. Paige's and Lynn's seem to be constructive.
Fred: I have had similar situations with a waving yellow, but it is better to be cautious. Not every incident is going to be called correctly, but hopefully everyone is safe at the end of the day. Don't ignore the waving yellow because it should indicate a bike and/or rider and fluids on the track. The rule is stated no passing from the waving yellow to the incident. I tend to slow a little upon seeing the waving yellow actually before the corner worker. Recommendation (remind myself before a race): Remind myself there could be a waving yellow or red flag on the race course and how to react (pre-planning). Upon seeing the waving yellow, if you have a clear track into the corner continue past the corner worker at race speed. Locate the incident on the track and make decision how to proceed at speed, but safely. (Don't over slow which causes issues). If another rider is following, you maybe blocking their view or may not see waving yellow. A slight gesture with left hand (raise up off bar 4 or 5 inches) might help indicate a problem up ahead to anyone following you. IMO
I am a Chief Steward and a licensed flagger for Car Racing. I was an AHRMA official and I have worked as a corner worker at a number of Bike Events. I have to agree with Swartout about the priorities (he is frequently right but don't quote me Jim, I'll deny it) . The most important thing is that everyone is OK at the end of the day. Comply with the flag to ensure to safety of yourself, your friends, and the flagger. Rain Director: I would suggest that the rules need to be looked at if they require the confirmation of the flagger. It is not too bad at car races since there are two or more people staffing a corner. But at a bike race with only one person on the corner, which is normal from my experience; watching for passes is the last thing on my mind during a waving yellow. I have to protect myself so I can then protect the riders still on the track and then to protect the downed rider. At the same time, I'm on the radio passing info to the Referee or Control. After all of that I can then worry about passes. Not all situations are as simple as this one, but I would think that the rules should allow the Race Director or Referee be able to take action on the basis of "The preponderance of the evidence." Gordon
This must be one of the longest running threads. I posted my indignation in 2001, it is now 2003. Fred
Some one revived it. It did get a response to what I (recently) posted about waving yellow flag where in the incident is far off track. Nomad writes: I would suggest that the rules need to be looked at if they require the confirmation of the flagger. My post relates specificly to the use of a waving yellow flag when the incident is off-track. It is better to use a stationary yellow for off-track incidents. But at a bike race with only one person on the corner, which is normal from my experience; watching for passes is the last thing on my mind during a waving yellow. I have to protect myself so I can then protect the riders still on the track and then to protect the downed rider. I understand his/her reasoning for using a waving yellow in the situation described. But it is in opposition to what is posted in the WERA rule book regarding a waving yellow flag: (B) When waved vigourously - indicates a hazard or obstacle on the track, avoidance maneuvers may be necessary. I believe that the practice of using a waving yellow for off-track incidents lessens the importance of the information being communicated to the rider.
George, I agree with your point regarding the escalation of flag levels. The waving yellow should only be used in very unusual instances when the incident is off track, and should be changed to standing as soon as possible. Otherwise it will lessen the attention and compliance given to the waving yellow. My concern was that the Referee could not arrive at an equitable decision because he was limited by the rule requiring confirmation of the pass under yellow from the flagger. I know from experience that a pass under yellow protest or question is one of the most difficult that a race official has to make. Gordon
Gordon writes: My concern was that the Referee could not arrive at an equitable decision because he was limited by the rule requiring confirmation of the pass under yellow from the flagger. I know from experience that a pass under yellow protest or question is one of the most difficult that a race official has to make. Thank you, Gordon, for recognizing the crux of the matter. :up: Unfortunately, I was faced with this situation in my last event. The workers were directing thier attention to the incident (2 workers tending the the rider/machine, a third flagging and the fourth working communications). The pass was made by Rider B when the Rider A had to check-up due to Rider C, in front in front of Rider A, hitting brakes when he saw the off-track incident. No workers reported the pass. Compunding the matter, the incident was captured on digital motion camera (OK, video, to be more or less precise). I based my decsion on the (non) report of the corner workers. IMHO, the entire matter would be moot except for the use of the waving yellow for an off-track incident. How about anyone else out there... how would you have handled this situation as the event director.
Racing rules are usually based on older racing rules that have evolved for good reason, so I can't just say that the rule requiring the flagging officials confirmation, or rather, the penalty can only be brought forward by the race official (as it appears the rule state) is wrong. As race director under the current rules you have no choice but to act as you did in my case two years ago and as you did recently. Unless the rules are changed and the race director is given the opportunity to rule based on the preponderence of the evidence, the only decision is the one you took. If the rule were changed based on the preponderence of the evidence it could get tricky. In my case the event occurred on the last lap, so it would have been easy to resolve as there were no other position changes afterwards between myself and the other three bikes. If it happens on earlier laps, it would get pretty tricky to rule on the final result if the riders involved changed positions a few times. I guess a stop and go for the offending riders might work though with the mixed classes it could really screw a guy not in the harmed rider's class.
In the other series AHRMA we allow for a protest to be lodged but ultimatly it is still up to the race director. In most cases when confronted conserning a pass under yellow the riders fess up.
