Turning at high speed on track

I do feel like I need to sell this bike but also feel I've invested so much time, effort and money I dont want to sell, if I sold this and bought say a new GSXR 1000 and had the same problem then it would probably magnify the issue due to me being on a far faster bike?

Do you guys move forward when setting up for the apex or move your bum back??

 

One of the worst things you can do for your riding is miss the same apex over and over again. Change your riding and hit the apex. Go slower if you have to. Practice success, not failure.

On top of that, that riding change is good data for a possible setup change that would work. For example, maybe you carried less brake and the bike turned better, so you could add front ride height to match the fork position that worked.

2nd gear corners usually aren’t fast corners. Usually you are either flipping from another 2nd gear corner or braking hard from high speed. Which is worse for getting to the apex? I’d bet it’s the latter, which implies you are rushing the corner or don’t have the setup to carry that much brake.

 

Hopefully this doesn’t come across as a stupid question, but is the apex fixed? IOW is it the same for fast and slower riders? And how do you determine where the apex is for a particular corner? Thanks

 

agree with all the above. and I'd add...
Trying to answer your question without knowing your approach to the corner is impossible... too many variables. too many possibilities.

 

The apex of a corner is where the entrance becomes the exit.

Walking the track is an invaluable exercise before a track day or race weekend. Looking at a corner standing still at various points can help you find entrance, apex and exit markers.
A great way to find an apex is to stand at where you want to be when you've finished exiting a corner and look back into the corner. Then, back to that apex point to look back...that will be your entrance. Draw the corner or take pictures, take notes.

That's a good starting point. Once you start getting more comfortable on a course and going faster, alterations to those references MaY have to be made to account for pace changes.

That's the fascination with track riding, you're constantly processing/recalculating a number of variables in real time.

Dealing with traffic, being passed or passing, will also factor into the equations you're balancing/processing in your head as well, again in real time.

 

“The apex of a corner is where the entrance becomes the exit”

That’s a really good description and hadn’t heard it described that way. Thanks for taking the time to respond!

 

Didn't this topic come up on another thread, something about improving my setup... I was thinking over a bunch of things for that thread and they carryover into this one as well.


On a very basic level (but difficult to quantify mathematically), the faster you travel, the harder it is to keep the steering turned to initiate your countersteer and body roll.

This righting effect of the motorcycle is where whenever the wheel is turned off center, above a certain speed, the righting effect tends to draw the wheel back in line.
The formula for this righting moment can be found in Motorcycle Design and Technology, by Cocco and is beyond my full understanding but he summarizes it like this...

M (righting moment) = trail x dynamic factors.
trail depends on rake, wheel radius and offset- some of these things you can control with set up.
dynamic factors- weight, speed of travel, coefficient of friction. Some of these you can control keeping in mind that you weight the front wheel with the brakes.

So you can see that YES a motorcycle will naturally be harder to "steer" away from straight as speeds increase. Some of that can be mitigated by setup. Some by technique.

differences in spinning masses may make a difference as well. although that is not described in the righting effect "equation" above. That is gyroscopic effects.

 

NP....YCRS teaches you to trail on the brakes.....meaning VERY light pressure to the apex, which causes slight compression/shortening of the forks that tightens the turn radius of the bike. Once off at the apex transition gently off the brakes and begin applying throttle to begin the exiting of the corner while also taking away lean angle. The less lean angle you're using the more throttle you can apply.

(Yes @khill I was paying attention during that session).

 

Incredible. Again, thanks for your time

 

Not that you’re not credible, but you know what I mean lol

 

Check out our new online curriculum if you can't make it to one of our in-person events. I think our section on R=MPH and Umbrella of Direction would be very helpful.

www.champschool.com

Let me know if I can help. [email protected]

 

Maybe splitting hairs but I will have to disagree. The apex is the point in the corner where your line is closest to the inside edge of the track.

Where it gets confusing is if you are treating the corner as an entry corner, balanced corner, or exit corner. Some corners you are already on the gas at the apex (exit corner) whereas some corners you are still on the brakes past the apex (entry corner). On your average 90 degree corner with equal length straightaways, you would brake to the apex, then start your acceleration immediately. That is a balanced corner.

Then there is the issue of where you apex, early, middle, or late. Early apexes are rare- it's basically what happens when you turn in early and run wide. When I'm having trouble with a corner, the first thing I will try is a later apex. Most corners can be run better with a later apex, with less time lost.

As @stangmx13 said, you have to get your apexes right, even if you have to slow down to do it. This is one of the most challenging parts of racing. You have to "ride for the exit"- in other words, you must have the bike positioned correctly, pointed in the right direction at the apex. Once you do that, it's just a matter of standing it up and opening the throttle. Easy. The hard part (for me, anyway) is building speed from the brake marker to the apex WITHOUT messing up the critical position at the apex.

 

“Apex” has never been a well defined term. There are at least two diff terms and both describe something useful. Personally I like “tightest turning radius point” most. But “closest point to inside” is very useful too, especially for coaching.

 

Of course there are endless variables but generally speaking, if I’m doing consistent 2:10s (slow I know) at Thunderhill, should I expect to be using different apexes if I were doing 2:00 lap times? In case anyone here has been at Thunderhill. I understand entry, exit and balanced corners. I’m trying to understand if your particular apexes are dependent on speed and skill or if it’s a fixed point regardless of speed. If that makes sense.

Again thanks for taking the time to contribute to this discussion.

 

No the apexes are the same... if you do a KHill class he sets the cones on the rumble strips where you should be... for instance 10 & 14 are corners you can pickup some time... Many over slow for 10...
14 especially because it sets up the front straight.
2 is another turn where alot of time can be gained.
Do you ride with Carters?

 

I’ve done Ken Hill classes that were part of a track day and they did that. And yes I’ve done many Carter’s days. Ernie was my favorite instructor Thanks

 

This might help.....

http://khcoaching.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/KHC-Glossary-v1.2017.pdf

 

The faster you go, the sooner (and quicker) you will snap the bike over, meaning, you will initiate your turn sooner, at a sooner point on the track surface. im my expericnce anyways.

Garth once posted," There are only a few basics, and some figure them out easir than others" or something like that. And I agree. KISS.

My theory is people overthink all of it... if you just relax, the basics all just happen, all just make sense... Overthinking/over-complicating/overanalyzing is the worst thing to do w/ a newer rider... just relax and breath it all in... it just 'happens' all by itself.

 

Ive heard/seen many answers to that first question over the years. Some people describe it as the slowest part of the corner, some will describe it as the point where it reaches the tightest radius, some will say its the moment you actually change directions, some might say it is where you go from brakes to throttle.

Whether we are talking about the apex (noun), or where you apex (verb), the answer is yes - not only can it vary between riders of different skill levels, but it can also vary with different bikes. Someone on a 125 may apex at a different spot than someone on a 1000.

 

Lol, beat me to it.

BTW, after listening don't forget to hit that paypal page and thank Ken for providing such awesome content