Tired of arm chair pilots

Sure, Gene. Pilots should be and are well-compensated for their skills. But not in excess of what the market will bear, as is the case with Delta right now. Sorry, Peter, Wayne.

 

About 20 years ago at Lakefront Airport in New Orleans (NEW to you pilot types) they had several gunners (as in shot guns) mowing down birds by the dozen near the airport perimiter (on the lake side so as not to endanger humans). The local animal rights activists protested but the guy in charge said something like, these birds area real threat to aircraft with the worst possible scenario being a small twin engined jet on take off, ingesting a bird, shutting down an engine at the worst possible time. The subsequent decimation of the local airport bird population was not halted in the slightest.

And some racers complain about bugs on their shields.

Which racer (AMA?) plowed though a bird on the racetrack last year during the race. I think it was last year. ??

Cheers,

 

Josh Hayes.

Also happened to a WERA guy, Brad Duncan at Roebling this yeat. He was chasing a Duc and hit a duck.

 

Seems like Colin Edwards hit a seagull a few years back at Philip Island also.
Steve

 

OK, then, I submit to you that Delta pilots currently make a proper wage and you, I and many other skilled positions are underpaid. This is much closer to the truth.

I always ask, why people often make this statement, " I don't make that much money so neither should you." Not often do I hear or read, "I need a raise because this group makes this salary, I do pretty close to the same thing so why can't I get equivilant pay?" It seems we are all victims of corporate propaganda and manipulation.

The money the airlines pay pilots and personnel is the only variable they have. Other costs are fixed (fuel, aircraft, equipment, maintenance, parts, airport fees etc...)and they can't do very much about them. But now "salaries", the airlines and other companies have direct control and it affects their bottom line in a positve way.

Money is a defining factor in getting the best people in any classification, and it works so well. So I'll have to say that Delta has the best pilots for obvious reasons. If you were a pilot and offered a job by Delta, would you go? Would you then say that you make too much money or, would you say that I am in the upper eschelon because I have earned this position I deserve it and the pay and benefits that go along with it? There is no harm in getting paid well.

Cheers, and may everyone make too much money next year!!

 

troy corser did too. in race two on the same day. if it would have happened in race one, he would have lost the world championship.

 

Wrong, Gene. I make a good living at my job. Sure I'd like more, but I know what the market will bear. At some positions, Delta pilots are paid 40% more than their Southwest counterparts. Are they 40% better than those pilots? I don't think so. Also the pilot utilization work rules are ridiculous, as there are many Delta pilots who only fly 50-60 hrs a month. Dude, I'm not jealous of them. I'm concerned about the stability of our airline. I'm genuinely puzzled about the selfishnes of ALPA and their seemingly cavalier willingness to send the company into bankruptcy, all because they have a contract the company is forced to honor until 2005. As another pilot stated- we're in this together, but the problem with me is that my pay and benefits have been cut, and the other workgroup hasn't been touched. 2 YEARS AFTER 9/11!!! Why is that so hard for you to understand?

 

There is when the company in question can't afford to do so and still turn a profit. You'll get paid well until the checks stop coming when the company goes under.

This is what he means by the market not bearing it. People can and will only pay so much to fly. If the airline can't make the numbers add up to that ticket price and still make a profit, they are in serious trouble.

- Roach

 

It's not hard to understand. If they don't cut ALPA's pay next contract, that only helps your position, doesn't it? Doesn't it help pilots of other airlines as well? It is a positive, not a negative.

I'd like to see a pie chart of the expense of the Airlines and see just how big a factor pilots salaries are compared considering the costs of jets, fuel, insurance, and upper management's salaries (which will not change regardless), employee salaries and such.

I find it hard to swallow that if you pay the pilots 40% less or even 10% less, Delta can stay in business. I think that's a sham. How much of that is bottom line savings? That's probably a couple plane loads of fuel to an airline.

Oh well, no arguments from me. I just require reams of data to make a decision and you surely won't get any concrete facts from any company. All they spout is propaganda, that is used to manipulate your thinking. What can I say, it works and always will.

 

You said yourself a couple posts ago that "The money the airlines pay pilots and personnel is the only variable they have"

That being the case ... how else do they cut costs to be profitable, especially when the country is in a recession?

So what you're saying is that the airlines that have failed recently did so ... to spite their employees? I'm confused. And the smaller airlines that are doing well ... since they all have the same fixed costs (actually higher more than likely, due to being smaller) except for labor ... how are they achieving success?

Your economics don't add up, except to rampid inflation.

- Roach

 

The current problem with the airlines may well be short term. How quickly do you believe they will raise the salaries they just cut if profitability suddenly improves?

On another note, isn't every company in America trying to do the same thing. Ours certainly is. Think about it. It's not about money, it's about power. Sad but true.

Take care

 

Here is their latest 10-Q filing.

Some excerps:

"Salaries and related costs represent 44% and 46% of our total operating expenses for the three and nine months ended September 30, 2003, respectively. We have taken steps, such as workforce reductions and changes in our non-pilot employee benefits, to reduce employee-related costs. However, our pilot cost structure is significantly higher than our peers. Our current Delta pilot contract does not become amendable until May 1, 2005. In October 2003, we presented a revised proposal to the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), which represents Delta's pilots, to move toward a competitive pilot cost structure. We cannot predict the outcome of these discussions."

"We expect to report a net loss of approximately $365 million to $415 million for the December 2003 quarter. This includes (1) an estimated $140 million settlement charge, net of tax, related to the pilots' defined benefit pension plan and (2) a $26 million charge, net of tax, associated with the planned sale of 11 B-737-800 aircraft. For additional information about these charges, see the Financial Condition and Liquidity section of Management's Discussion and Analysis in this Form 10-Q."

"Salaries and related costs increased 1% to $1.6 billion. This primarily reflects a 5% increase due to higher pension expense (which includes savings realized in 2003 from changes to our non-pilot pension plan), a 2% increase due to salary and benefit rate increases, primarily for pilots in the June 2003 quarter, and a 1% increase due to growth in our wholly owned regional jet operations. These increases were partially offset by a 7% decrease resulting from our 2002 workforce reduction programs."

 

Gene, you may have some tinfoil hat issues. I do not think a company, especially a large one, lays off employees on a power trip. They do it in an attempt to cut costs (along with other measures). Ultimately, they answer to their shareholders.

And that's the difference too - a normal company that can hire and fire at will does so depending on prevailing economic conditions. Once business improves, they hire more people to handle the increased workload.

- Roach

 

So you believe the airlines failed because the workers made too much money. Have a nice day.

 

Try again. You failed to answer any of the questions or defend your viewpoint.

You said the only costs they control is employee salary. SO, if that's the case ... how did some fail, how are some not doing well, and how are some smaller ones (which coincidentally are paying less along with other cost-saving measures) doing well?

- Roach

 

It is quite obvious that you do not understand "power" as it applies to a company regarding it's workforce. You have also missed other points with regard to my posts. No problem.

This is about airline pilots, how much they get paid, and you rationalize a pay cut as a method for an airline to maintain profitability. I disagree and I have given reasons why I disagree.

I can assure you of one thing, the airlines that failed did not fail because their pilots made too much money.

Have a nice day.

 

I have hit a number of birds. Maybe planes don't crash from it, but a couple of them did scare the crap out of me! The sound of one hitting dead center in the windshield makes my heart INSTANTLY go to 180 bpm!

I did land once in un-forcast severe icing when the windshield heat failed. That scared the crap out of me too....


One thing I saw recently that may be relevant:

http://www.forbes.com/2002/09/03/0903worksafe.html

Basically, it says that the US Bureau of Labor Statistics rates "commercial pilot" as the 3rd most dangerous profession in the US. Police, fire rescue, etc don't even make the list. Something to think about when considering pay and if you want to fly for a profession. I do realize that the statistics are not perfectly representative of being an airline pilot, but most pilots do other commercial flying first.

Personally, I couldn't imagine doing anything other than flying. I often think of my friends typing in their cubicle when I bust out on top to beautiful sunshine when it is an overcast dreary day on the ground. I also get a view of the sunrise that sometimes takes my breath away.

Are pilots paid enough? I suppose I could always spend more money if I had it

Steve Thompson, ATP

 

Word. I've changed a few seatcovers in the cockpit due to birdstrikes.

 

'Tis a bit of a canard, don't you think? It's like saying that a Russian Roulette competitor has a dangerous job IOW, the biggest danger to pilots is...themselves. CFIT, ALA, etc.

 

Here are some conversations that airline passengers normally will never hear. The following are accounts of actual exchanges between airline pilots and control towers from around the world.

While taxiing at London Gatwick Airport, the crew of a US Air flight departing for Ft. Lauderdale made a wrong turn and came nose to nose with a United 727.

An irate female ground controller lashed out at the US Air crew, screaming: "US Air 2771, where the hell are you going?! I told you to turn right onto Charlie taxiway! You turned right on Delta! Stop right there. I know it's difficult for you to tell the difference between C and D, but get it right!" Continuing her rage to the embarrassed crew, she was now shouting hysterically: "God! Now you've screwed everything up! It'll take forever to sort this out! You stay right there and don't move til I tell you to! You can expect progressive taxi instructions in about half an hour and I want you to go exactly where I tell you, when I tell you, and how I tell you! You got that, US Air 2771?"

"Yes ma'am," the humbled crew responded. Naturally, the ground control communications frequency fell terribly silent after the verbal bashing of US Air 2771. Nobody wanted to chance engaging the irate ground controller in her current state of mind. Tension in every cockpit out in Gatwick was definitely running high. Just then an unknown pilot broke the silence and keyed his microphone, asking: "Wasn't I married to you once?"

=============================================

A DC-10 had come in a little hot and thus had an exceedingly long roll out after touching down. San Jose Tower Noted: "American 751, make a hard right turn at the end of the runway, if you are able. If you are not able, take the Guadalupe exit off Highway 101, make a right at the lights and return to the airport." ==============================================

From an unknown aircraft waiting in a very long takeoff queue: "I'm f...in bored!" Ground Traffic Control: "Last aircraft transmitting, identify yourself immediately!" Unknown aircraft: "I said I was f...ing bored, not f...in stupid!"

============================================ Tower: "Eastern 702, cleared for takeoff, contact Departure on frequency 124.7" Eastern 702: "Tower, Eastern 702 switching to Departure. By the way, after we lifted off we saw some kind of dead animal on the far end of the runway." Tower: "Continental 635, cleared for takeoff behind Eastern 702, contact Departure on frequency 124.7. Did you copy that report from Eastern 702?" Continental 635: "Continental 635, cleared for takeoff, roger; and yes, we copied Eastern... we've already notified our caterers" =============================================

The German air controllers at Frankfurt Airport are renowned as a short-tempered lot. They not only expect one to know one's gate parking location, but how to get there without any assistance from them. So it was with some amusement that we (a Pan Am 747) listened to the following exchange between Frankfurt ground control and a British Airways 747, call sign Speedbird 206". Speedbird 206: "Frankfurt, Speedbird 206 clear of active runway." Ground: "Speedbird 206. Taxi to gate Alpha One-Seven." The BA 747 pulled onto the main taxiway and slowed to a stop. Ground: "Speedbird, do you not know where you are going?" Speedbird 206: "Stand by, Ground, I'm looking up our gate location now. Ground (with quite arrogant impatience): "Speedbird 206, have you not been to Frankfurt before?" Speedbird 206 (coolly): "Yes, twice in 1944 -- but I didn't land." =========================================

O'Hare Approach Control to a 747: "United 329 heavy, your traffic is a Fokker, one o'clock, three miles, Eastbound." United 239: "Approach, I've always wanted to say this... I've got the little Fokker in sight." ============================================

A Pan Am 727 flight waiting for start clearance in Munich overheard the following: Lufthansa (in German): "Ground, what is our start clearance time?" Ground (in English): "If you want an answer you must speak in English." Lufthansa (in English): "I am a German, flying a German airplane, in Germany. Why must I speak English?" Unknown voice from another plane (in a beautiful British accent): "Because you lost the bloody war."