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MotoAmerica - Round 2 - Barber 05/19-21

Discussion in 'General' started by motodog650, May 5, 2023.

  1. Knarf Legna

    Knarf Legna I am not Gary Hoover

    Except in the meeting that Kevin and I had with Race Direction they emphasized that the decision was based upon the moment that the red flag was displayed, not what he did after. That was how they dismissed the obvious fact that he picked up the bike. Gus was on his knees recovering at that moment, 28 seconds later he was on the bike riding it back to the pits. They didn't care, the Race Director kept referring to the moment the flag was displayed.
    Basura likes this.
  2. Monsterdood

    Monsterdood Well-Known Member

    I would say that is still part of the crash itself and therefore part of competing. But if he milked it and caused the red flag to come out, then sure, “not competing”. That was for sure not the case here so it was a bad call and if they won’t use their allowed discretion, then I guess we need a Rodio rule clarification to the Fong rule.
  3. tophyr

    tophyr Grid Filler

    I don't really understand the point of disallowing people from taking a restart, in the first place. Why make a distinction between "actively competing" at all? I do understand the need to discourage flopping to get a red, but that could be easily remedied with a much-clearer "Race Direction will decide the rider(s) responsible for the red flag". Same amount of RD "discretion", but way clearer responsibility.
    noles19 likes this.
  4. TWF2

    TWF2 2 heads are better than 1

    I never understood why somebody who crashes before race is stopped is allowed to restart.
    Once a Wanker.. and noles19 like this.
  5. noles19

    noles19 Well-Known Member

    I'm still trying to figure out how you get laps back during a red flag..
    Once a Wanker.. likes this.
  6. ToofPic

    ToofPic Well-Known Member

    I think the race should have been red flagged when the riders were raising hell and pointing at the obvious..rain! Maybe if these officials climbed onto the back of a bike with a set of slicks,and a rider pre determined to haul these pricks around in those conditions,they might see it diferently. Its easy to let it ride from that cushy race control seat.They are responsible for everyone of those guys that hit the deck.It cost teams money,points and possibly a championship,not to mention injuries.Again lose the Bravado MA
    KneeDragger_c69 and grasshopper like this.
  7. noles19

    noles19 Well-Known Member

    It's not about bravado it's about TV time slots most likely
  8. tophyr

    tophyr Grid Filler

    is allowed to restart? or is not allowed to restart?

    i look at a red as a pause in the race. RD may decide to end the race as a result, but that's irrelevant here. if RD restarts the race, it's still the same race. SO, if riders are allowed to continue after a crash at all (which they are in MA), and it's the same race after the restart (which i think it is), then it makes sense to me that someone who crashes prior to the red would be able to restart after the red.

    basically, if you're on the starting grid, you should be allowed to be on track all the way through to the cooldown lap, regardless of whether you've crashed, there's been a red, or whatever else. if you crashed in the third corner and didn't get your bike re-teched until the white-flag lap, so be it: go out and complete the race. you might finish 47 laps down, but you'll finish.

    MELK-MAN The Dude abides...

    i seriously doubt it too.
  10. Skter505

    Skter505 Well-Known Member

    Crashes and drama make for good YouTube clips and it seems that's all motoamerica cares about these days. They pulled the same shit a few years ago when the superbikes were riding through standing water and crashing.

    You'd think safety would be a priority but it seems that's not the case.
  11. TWF2

    TWF2 2 heads are better than 1

    They should be allowed to finish race, but not take restart with rest like nothing happened. Nobody should benefit from red flag after crashing.
    TurboBlew, Robin172 and 5axis like this.
  12. tophyr

    tophyr Grid Filler

    ah, i think i see what you're saying, and i agree with you. i look at sprint races as basically just a special-case of endurance races: they're short enough that you don't need a pit stop. but, the rules should be the exact same. red flag pauses the race, including all work in pits. crash truck will come recover you, but then no working on the bike (and no re-tech'ing the bike) until the race restarts. once it does, you may commence repairs and/or re-tech and then continue your race from pit lane after an official clears you.
  13. rwdfun


    So this is a newish rule change? I have several frustrating vague memories of a rider crashing, causing the red flag and then was allowed to restart, sometimes not losing any positions. I never thought that was fair. Even if the rule was changed to not allow that scenario anymore, it doesn't seem that change even applies here.

    Gus may have crashed and then the red flag displayed, but he didn't cause the red flag. I say that because realistically, if it wasn't raining and other riders hadn't backed off and were begging for a red flag, Gus's crash wouldn't have caused a red flag. I can't recall a single time when a red flag was thrown quickly following a single bike crash where the bike was in the gravel trap and the rider wasn't hurt. It happens all the time that they let that scenario play out while the race stays green. From that simple fact, it seems like the red flag was due to rain. MA seems to have the wrong people in critical positions. If they want to be considered a professional organization they need to admit this was a mistake and make any changes needed. This call was so bad, they'd have be better off with Michael Massi in race direction.
  14. Peter Hively

    Peter Hively Registered

    Off Track with Carruthers and Bice - #235 Niccole Cox and Rick Hobbs

    Also, it never hurts to RTFRB. In every one of these instances, going back several years, I see folks referring to rules that are not in the current rulebook. Also many are saying what they think should be done, or what they feel should be done, which may or may not be what the rule book says should be done.

    Rising and MELK-MAN like this.
  15. Knarf Legna

    Knarf Legna I am not Gary Hoover

    I haven't had time to watch yet, but I'm wondering who you're referring to. I have read the rule book many times and I'm extremely familiar with it. In particular, I'm familiar with rule 1.28.4 regarding actively competing because Gus suffered the same fate in 2021 in a Junior Cup race at Pitt where he and another rider crashed leaving their bikes on the track. Red flag, after moving out of the way of a swarm of bikes approaching the crash Gus picked up his bike and rode it back to the pits. Like Barber he was caught by the actively competing rule by a discretionary call by Race Direction. And that's the point, in both cases it's not knowing the rule, it's disagreement with a discretionary call.
    Last edited: May 26, 2023
  16. RossK6

    RossK6 Grid Filler

    OK, I get it, it's in the rules, and they have the authority to make the judgement, but from what Niccole described, I had just as much information as she did (video), I think that it's a bit of a leap to make that call.

    At 15:16, she describes that they used his actions at the red flag and AFTER the flag to determine that Gus was not actively competing.

    edit - and again at 20:30 uses actions after the flag to justify it. At this point, just take it out of their hands and use BSB's "if the bars touch the ground" rule
  17. Knarf Legna

    Knarf Legna I am not Gary Hoover

    Again, haven't watched yet but in our meeting with Race Direction Kevin and I heard Rick Hobbs explain multiple times that his decision was based on the TV shot where Gus was on his knees in the gravel trap when the red flag was clearly displayed. There was no other video available at the time, nothing that was used to make his call. Later that day we were informed that Barber security video showed Gus moving away from his bike, but we have not been granted access to that video.

    I'm over the entire situation, we are putting it behind us and are going to continue to race hard for the championship. I'm not interested in criticizing Race Direction, only in having them reassess the rule and its application. Kudos to Niccole for encouraging us to do so by submitting our suggestions.
    Last edited: May 26, 2023
    Rising likes this.
  18. Knarf Legna

    Knarf Legna I am not Gary Hoover

    Had Gus crashed on lap 1 or 2 the actively competing would not apply and he could have restarted. Weird, huh? Screenshot_20230526-114042.png
  19. prm

    prm Well-Known Member

    I have no skin in the game. What possible reason do they have for making the decision to prevent a kid from racing, based on so little information? It is a discretionary call, it better be crystal clear to choose the path of not letting a competitor race. Other riders down in the exact same corner were allowed to race and gus did ride back to the pits in a reasonably timely manner. Now that I’ve voiced that opinion, I’ll listen to the podcast. Maybe they’ll change my mind…
  20. Knarf Legna

    Knarf Legna I am not Gary Hoover

    The red flag was thrown for multiple crashes not rain. It was not declared a wet race on the restart.
    MELK-MAN likes this.

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