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For the FTP's amongst us

Discussion in 'The Dungeon' started by ryoung57, Jan 27, 2014.

  1. mfbRSV

    mfbRSV Well-Known Member

    You must mistake me for a FTPcer? What caused the deputy's "hesitation"? Neither one of us know, but he sure as hell did, and it cost him his life.
  2. Shyster d'Oil

    Shyster d'Oil Gerard Frommage

    I agree. It cuts both ways. It's not video, just stills, but an officer I'm defending took stills of a scene where an arrestee died in custody -- those pics may save everybody's bacon, right out of pulp fiction, but with roofing tar.
  3. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds

    No. I know somebody on here would find fault if he'd shot that old man but people on here would argue that the world is flat.

    I'd guess he hesitated for the same reason most people do - a fear of action, thinking that it wasn't really happening to him, just "thinking" in general instead of acting (which is really a result of not enough training), etc, etc, etc. Regardless, he's dead, and that video is probably shown in every single police training academy in the country as what NOT to do - which, depending on your pov, has either saved lots of police lives or cost lots of civilians lives, since. I recall a recent shooting near my hometown (there was a thread on here) where a lady got in a fight with her boyfriend, took off driving and drinking, and was pulled over fall down drunk later on. She had a pistol on her and half-assed waived it around. Even though she was so drunk that she couldn't even stand, let alone work the gun or ever hope to hit anything, it didn't stop the deputy from shooting her five times in the head and chest, killing her instantly.
  4. mfbRSV

    mfbRSV Well-Known Member

    Maybe cops are like motorcycle riders, we always want to believe "that" wouldn't happen to me. But then circumstances happen that you didn't quite plan for and a bad shituation occurs. That's where the training really comes in, to put the odds in your favor when the unexpected is taking place.
  5. Orvis

    Orvis Well-Known Member

    And yet the deputy would have been alive to fight the charges. The deputy showed great restraint in not putting the man down when all the stupidity started but as soon as the man brought out the rifle it should have been all over for him. I wouldn't give a shit what kind of veteran he was. You just don't leave open the possibility of a shootout. Tragic.
  6. crashman

    crashman Grumpy old man

    I think this is one of those situations where stupid can hurt really bad. If you get stopped by the police and wave a pistol around you should expect to get shot.
  7. mfbRSV

    mfbRSV Well-Known Member

    Yup. As soon as the rifle butt started to emerge from the truck he should have been close enough to empty his magazine into the wacko. That murderer is still living off the Georgia taxpayers. :down:
  8. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds

    Yes, technically it was a valid shoot. But dig a little deeper and you'd find that her family had called in to let them know to be on the lookout for her, that she had been drinking heavily, had a pistol, and was potentially suicidal. Take all of that into consideration and it's pretty obvious that she was much more of a threat to herself than to the deputy that shot her.
  9. STT-Rider

    STT-Rider Well-Known Member

    They'll eventually surrender to the idea.
  10. STT-Rider

    STT-Rider Well-Known Member

    Man...anyone waiving a loaded gun around and acting crazy is dangerous in my opinion. I'm hard on LEO sometimes but they have a duty to defend the public and a right to protect themselves.
  11. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds

    Do a quick search and watch the video. In this case she wasn't waiving it around, more of a half ass attempt at displaying it, but she was so drunk that there was no chance she was even going to work it successfully.

    I'd equate it to a fall down stumbling drunk in a bar threatening to kick your ass. Would you square off and fight with him or laugh and tell him to screw off? Maybe you'd sidestep him and trip him if he lunged at you but you wouldn't beat the crap out of him.
  12. STT-Rider

    STT-Rider Well-Known Member

    I take anyone with a gun VERY seriously, no exceptions. Even drunks get a good shot off now and then. I place a higher value on being alive more than being sympathetic to an armed idiot. Harsh? Possibly. Truthful, absolutely.

    I wonder why her family didn't place their lives at risk to disarm her? This is an honest question, not meant to be smart-assed.
  13. crashman

    crashman Grumpy old man

    I don't really agree with the analogy. A stumbling, falling down drunk has very little chance of hitting a sober, aware person. Add in distance and a firearm and all of a sudden there are too many variables. I just can not blame the officer for erring on the side of caution.
  14. desmo2

    desmo2 Well-Known Member

    I stayed out of this thread due to the title. Today I got curious. What the hell, I'll pitch in my thoughts (I KNEW I should have ignored that curiosity!).

    Really? I was wondering, because you seem to speak with such authority on the subject. There's a reason I don't tell Josh Hayes how to launch at the start of a race...it's because I have never raced and I would have no clue what I'm talking about. There's a reason I don't tell fire fighters they took the wrong approach to putting out a fire...because I haven't responded to 742 fires prior to that one and I would have no idea what I'm talking about.

    Lucky day. Suppose he hesitates thinking it's a hose nozzle, only to find out when five shots ring out that it isn't. Did he do the right thing by hesitating and dying?

    Well, shit. Looks like I'm going to have to agree with an FTP'er on this one.

    Those are some heavy assumptions with an awful lot at stake. It is so easy to sit on a couch with a Pepsi and a laptop, and critique the actions of those who were there. Unfortunately, when you are on the street, in the dark, a person is in front of you with a weapon, and you are the one who has to live or die with the consequences of the decision you are about to make, you only have one opportunity to make that decision. You rarely have time to game plan it, run multiple scenarios through your head, read comments from 127 others on the same situation, or, most importantly, to KNOW how that decision will play out and be critiqued. You have to play that hand NOW; you can't wait until later so you can phone a friend. Sometimes that decision turns out well. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes the outcome could have gone either way, and you just got lucky (or didn't). In the situation you alluded to, don't forget that the mental separation from suicidal to homicidal can be very, very thin...especially when impaired.

    I almost forgot to pitch in my thoughts on the body cam, which was the initial point of the thread. I don't care. I already have a dash camera that records everything in front of and inside my car, and a body mic that records all audio as long as I am within a couple of dozen yards from my car. A body camera that records my actions away from the car doesn't change anything for me. If we, the taxpayers, demand it, then do it. As I have said before, I take pride in my profession and my actions, and I want the public to trust me. Fire and prosecute (if applicable) the turds who ruin that for me.
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2014
  15. pickled egg

    pickled egg There is no “try”

    I just read this, and there's no fucking way you're legit LEO.

    You used "alluded" correctly. :crackup:
  16. kangasj

    kangasj Banned

    LOL, when in doubt, shoot. OK, I get it...:rolleyes:
  17. desmo2

    desmo2 Well-Known Member

    Really? Is that what you think I said?

    The real world is never black and white; never "this is the only way to do it for this situation." That's why I am saying you can't fairly armchair quarterback what others did. You weren't there. You don't have all of the information. The public is quick to pass judgment based on a video clip when there is so much more to the entire thing. The police internal review board and the courts (if needed) will have much more information...but you seem so willing to say the police screwed up based on a single partial video. Video is a great tool, but it isn't the ONLY tool.

    Cops fuck up. Sometimes it is because they are douche bags, sometimes they just made the wrong choice in a split second.

    If you are an FTP'er and that is cool for you, great. I hope the chicks you are after dig it. I have no fantasies of nor concerns for winning you over.
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2014
  18. kangasj

    kangasj Banned

    Eh, regardless of what some in here may say, I'm not a full blown FTP em all type. I've had interaction with many cops and thought they were professional and nice guys. Hell, my neighbor was an SC state cop and was a hell of a good guy. But..., I don't have a problem getting pissed and saying something about it when a cop is obviously fucking up. Course, I don't get all hooray when they do there job correctly. Hell, if I fuck up at work I get more attention than when I do things right....well, I would have to assume that's the case since I never mess up.....LOL, joking...
  19. ryoung57

    ryoung57 Off his meds

    Good to see you taking part here. I know the FTP threads are your favorites:D

    Sort of applicable to both bolded sections: I can see the argument both ways, but doesn't a certain amount of risk come with the job? If there is going to be a question of who to put at risk, shouldn't it be the police, soldier, firefighter, etc? Isn't there a duty to protect the public from harm (even from themselves) even if it comes with the potential for you to get hurt?

    In the case of the lady in Greene Co that got herself shot, is it acceptable to kill somebody just in case they had criminal intent? And to further this particular one, I'm pretty sure the deputy that shot her has second guessed the decision (iirc he might have resigned but I honestly don't know).

    Disclaimer: I know Desmo2 pretty well

    (and kind of enjoy giving him shit:Poke:)
  20. desmo2

    desmo2 Well-Known Member

    Of course there is a certain risk associated with the job. Responding to a report of someone stumbling around in the street with a gun is going to be risky. That doesn't mean the officer has to get shot at to determine whether the person has criminal intent or not. The officer should not be expected to value a suspect's life over his own. Conversely, there are many scenarios where an officer should value a hostage's life over his own, or a woman in a burning car, etc. That doesn't mean the officer should selflessly sacrifice his life, but he should be willing to take a higher risk to save a life if there is a probability of him being able to do so.

    In the case of the Springfield woman...I don't know, I wasn't there and don't have enough information! ;) Seriously though, she is the one who created her own situation. She got herself impaired, armed herself, and was then loose and threatening the public. There are countless "what if's" that could be applied to this situation (couldn't they have contained her, Tased her, etc). Her death is regrettable and probably tragic, but no innocent passers-by were hurt, so the most important goal was achieved.

    At face value, of course not. It may be acceptable to kill someone who has the apparent ability and possible opportunity to direct lethal force at innocent people.

    I know several officers who have been involved in clearly justifiable shootings to save the life of another or their own, but still agonized over the decision to shoot. I also know of a few dead and injured ones who didn't make the decision to shoot soon enough.
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2014

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