Vintage points rule change poll

Ok due to the fact that i didnt read rulebook and things are different.
I want to take a poll on changing the way we collect points to open it up so everyone has a chance to race for national title.
So far they count best of 6 finishes for V6 and up classes.
Now problem is that if a rider has no one on grid but him he is guaranteed perfect points. But others in different regions have more racers on grid and dont win every race then mathematically they cant win a title.
if guy who had perfect points shows and just finishes the race.
So instead of this here is what i propose.
120 points cap going into GNF.
Say guy only that he is only one on his grid in his region has 6 races and earns perfect points= 120.
lets say other regions and guys dont win every race and only get 110 points.
We NOT count best 6 finishes but they can still race to add to their 110 till the get 120 or above. You can race as many times as you like as we all do in our regions. But when you get to GNF we all have 120 as long as you earned 120 or over.
So race till you get 120+ points.Then clear points at 120, that way you can get more guys racing for the National title and winner takes all at GNF like its meant to be.
And it wont hurt guys who have low grid turn out. It wont guarantee them a title if others cant collect enough points. But it does not hurt them either.
Now hope i presented this right. But i think we should make this for all Vintage classes. And dont make this about my dumb self.
I think this will get racers back on the grids and have a better chance for guys to be able to fight for the Vintage National titles.
So Let us know what you think.

Steven Isenhower #52 2001 V6

 

as so it begins. you really want me to say what i think Randy? got something to say then say it or better yet bring your butt to the grid and prove it!
John wants to prove he is the best rider and so do i.
But as i said this is not about me. so grow up and lets get more people on the grid and make this national title mean something.

Steven Isenhower #52 2001 V6

 

Do you ever read the rulebook before you start racing a certain series/class?
I ask that question, because you proposed some half-assed mid season rule change with the CMRA back in 2011. Something about scoring pts and a certain % of laps being completed in a race.

Might I suggest:
Before 2015, set down with the rulebook in whatever series/class you plan on running and read it, comprehend it, and plan accordingly.

 

well seeing as its not in the rulebook. Maybe you should read it too!
And to be clear are you racing vintage with WERA?
The rule that you speak of is doing 1 lap and getting points! ITS A PUSSY RULE!
You earn points! and there you go again attacking me.
Bring your ass to the grid and show me how is done.
I now know why the grids are light in vintage, no incentive!
How about classic in cmra? Look how full that grid is.
As a bussiness i would think you people should be smarter about this sport and try to grow the grids. Cause if they fold then where and with who are you going to race with?
I started a long time ago when it was a full house at CMRA amd WERA where together. 55 plus on grid at endurance races and turning teams away.
I see something that can make it better and all i get is you people who dont even race in vintage all year attacking me. Grow up.
See last national championship i won was 2001 V6. I was explained how to get points.
But seeing as i won all my races i got points. But hey we had 4 tp 8 people on the grid back then and a full vintage series in Texas. Now you have a few people that race vintage at all. This points deal looks like one to me.
And it was not a mid yr rule change. it was for next yr just like this is for.
And i was told it would happen by someone who didnt have the authority to make it happen. Oh well you see where im racing dont you. you worry about what your doing and if you got something to say tell me at TWS to my face.

Steven Isenhower #52 2001 V6

 

Why wouldn't we just take the person that has the most points and declare the champion. There are reasons whey the Vintage class points are the way they are and there are double points at the GNF. I am not saying yes or no to your "poll", but you need to ask why the points are the way they are first before you go demanding a change. JMO...

 

I'm not a V6 / 7 guy, but here goes.....

I think you are basically talking the way the Sportsman series was or is ran.....the winner of GNF is the National Champ.....GNF winner take all......I don't agree with that format, just my opinion.

Sandbagger shows up for one race, and takes the title from a guy who has built a bike and raced all year....I don't think that's right.

As long as any rule change affects only V6 / 7, go ahead.....you guys are kinda stepping away from Vintage anyhow, so why not just officially group you with Sportsman?....that's kinda what you are asking to do If I understand the system correctly....anyone confirm??

I don't agree with that format. I have no problem with the current points system for the rest of the "Vintage" series.

Just my opinion of course.

 

Ok guess i didnt explain it better. sorry not a guy who write crap real well.
you still need to earn points in your region as everyone always does.
But due to the low grid turn out in different regions its possible to have a perfect 120 points just buy showing up and finishing the race.
Problem comes in to where we are today.
guy has perfect points and no one else does and we cant make them up to be able mathematically to earn title.
If a guy with perfect points shows cause of there are 5 or less on grid and there is a 10 point spread on everyone else. he just cruises around and Boom Champion.
But my way is guys can make back up there points and the 6 best races dont count anymore. But anyone with 120 or more points going into GNF, their points will go to a flat 120 and we all equal in points. But now more can have a chance to race for the title.
Hope is that it will fill grids by giving every a way to may points back up.
If you miss 1 race or have 1 bad race and in another region there is only one guy on grid and he collects perfect points then you've wasted your time and money and have reason to keep racing.
you will still have to race to collect 120 or more to be able to win the National title.
Now to the other vintage guys. you only count 4 best races. so you have lore races to get your best 4 points wise. But us V6-V7 guys that every race we run. you have to win them all. the Rub is all it takes is one guy to be only person on grid in his region and if he shows up at GNF he can just start race and finish top 5 and boom he is champ.
And this has happen this yr right now.
How do you define a Champion?
One who goes looking to prove he is the best and earned it.
And John and Ray are great Champions. They seek out competition and go faster and get better.
I drove a long way to race and wanted the opportunity to be able to fight for the National title. Had a few issues along the way. But as it sits right now there is no way for me math wise to win V7 Hw if Other guys hits the grid.
So why would i spent time and money in the hopes that he will crash or blowup?
Now i do know for a fact he would not just idle around. That is what makes him a champion.
But this does show a flaw in the way we gather points and thats why im putting this out there.
I questioned why grid are so low with bikes being cheap and everywhere.
Im very cheap in how i race. I took a chance to make a run at this deal.
Nothing is guaranteed in life. But whats it going to hurt if we open up the points and gave everyone a chance to be able to fight to win a national title.
Ive ben trying to get guys from Texas to come race. But as rules are written right now. Its a waste of their time and no way to win a national title. They can just stay close to home.
Hope that helps. so chime in.


Steven Isenhower #52 2001 V6

 

Hey, I didn't put that thumbs down up there!...musta fat-fingered something. serious.

OK Steven, I'm gonna need to read that a couple times, but no big deal....I will.

I'm pretty sure the guy who is lone wolf in his region didn't plan it that way. I guess I could be wrong, but I'm sure he didn't move somewhere just to race WERA by himself.

What if things were reversed and you were lone wolf? You built your bike, you paid your fees, you made and FINISHED races....how would you feel about your own suggestion?

OK, I think I see what you are saying concerning sandbaggers....basically you STILL have to have 6 races to QUALIFY to win the National Title, right?

Doesn't double points "Kinda" do that?...in a way?....if he has 120, and you have 102 (6 2nd place), he can still lose at GNF.

Since ours (Regular Vintage) is different, I'm gonna back away here.....good luck with it.....I'm neither fore or opposed since you guys are different anyway.....hope I didn't muddy the waters for you Steven.

Maybe thread title change to V6 / V7 points?

 

Exactly, why penalize the only guy keeping a class alive in a region? If you show up, pay your money and cross the finish line first, you did your job. Building up the grids starts with one bike. I would also be willing to wager the reason for poorly attended grids has NOTHING to do with point structure. It all comes down to money. Those who have it race, those who don't, don't.

 

I tried building the grids by buying every ex Kawi race bike I came accross (ZX6R)

I think I put 4-5 extra into play and I dont think one of them ever made it to a race including the last 3 I sold.

No wait, I think Mike Burns rode one at Road A and the damn thing was making almost 104hp...!!

 

How about the points only go to regional championships. Every one comes to GNF with 0 points , winner takes all

 

I'm with Howie. Send a well written, well punctuated email to Sean and open some conversation on the rule situation.
I'm lucky to make one or two V7 races a year so I'm not a championship factor but I would like to race with a larger grid. Just short of handing out winning lottery numbers or all of us moving to Texas, it's going to be tough to increase grid sizes.

 

So if you can't get 120 points in six races you get to do it in eight or ten? If you want a single winner take all championship race, just say so. It works fine for the modern sportsman classes. Keep it simple. Disclosure: I have not raced my vintage bike in two or three seasons, so I have no right to even have an opinion.

 

Let me try and answer these 1 at a time. No i know for a fact that guy didnt just show up to collect his points. But problem is this suppose to be a National title? Thats why we collect regional points. But id love to not hand him the title cause he just showed up while everyone else had to race 3 or 4 guys to earn points.
My way does not penalize anyone. It helps a low turn out and help racers with a big turn out. But and this is my deal, it lets anyone who wants to or needs to make up points keep racing and of course paying more $ to WERA.
Now if rolls where reversed. i still be for it, who the hell wants to win a National title and not race or earn it on the track? NOT ME! And I have been told this buy other guys that are Champions.
You get my point.
Now we already have regional titles.
Im talking national title. thats why you need the 120 points. im just trying to give racers a chance to be on equal terms to someone who had no one to race in their region.
And maybe i a little dense, but double points does just what? The points for 1 to 2nd still is a 3 points split. That does not change. does not matter if you award an triple points. If you finish right behind him or on front of him with only 5 guys on grid, he has 10 points on you going into GNF there is no way your going to make it up. Cause he gets double points too.
Unless they change the points system from 1 through 10 place.
Am i wrong?
And reason i have not gone to sean is i thought id see what you guy thought.
I see a rule change thread at top of page.

Steven Isenhower #52 2001 V6

 

V7 Points at the GNF are essentially 40 for 1st, 34 for 2nd, and 30 for 3rd, and on down the line. It is actually very possible to make those points up at the GNF. I personally have seen it happen. A rider can be behind 5 points or more after counting his 6 best and those points can be made up in one round at the GNF.

 

well due to the fact that im 10 down in both classes. i miracle is going to have to happen.
And let see how many even show up on the grid to race.
And that just points out problem. I will weigh if im even going to go now.
another 1000$ i can save.

Steven Isenhower #52 2001 V6

 

I appreciate riders wanting to have the rulebook reflect as level a playing field as possible to increase competition and participation, and I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt because you said several times that you were having a hard time articulating your ideas, but your post quoted above just makes you sound like a whiny bitch.

You were (or should have been) aware of the rules and points structure when you started racing this season. If you felt a change was in order it should have been brought up before the season began. Now two weeks before the GNF you want a rule change to legislate yourself a championship or you are threatening not to race? Come on man, if you are going to act like that, then take your ball and bat and go home.

This lone rider who is not "earning" the championship preps his bike the same as you do, he pays his fees the same as you do and he grids up the same as you and is bound by the same rulebook you are. It is not his fault or problem if there is no one else doing the same in his region. If it bothers you that much, go race his region and keep him honest, because you surely seem to have the market cornered on good sportsmanship.

Kris Larrivee #473 V6LW

 

Geesh, I know I said I wasn't gonna do this...but I agree with Duc.

Steven, Yes I get your point, but don't agree totally....10 points is the difference between 1st and 3rd at GNF....that's you finish 1st and him 3rd and your even.....I've seen more than that made up before....I've made up more than that before. If you are that much better than him, you CAN make that up.

What if he breaks?...or crashes chasing you?

Just my opinion here, but it probably would be easier to get yourselves into the "winner take all" format like Nigel said, than to create a hybrid points system that only applies to V6 / V7. I can hear Sean right now going "just what I need, a 3rd or 4th points system to track!"

Good luck sir.

 

you know something. you dont know what ive been through this yr to get to theses races. so kiss my ass. Dude do you even know where i live?
At the last RA double header they did my points in MW7 and they the WERA people told me i had 117. But seeing as how i was going to go on what they told me and after i was given the points for structure i redid the math.
Ive spent shit loads of money to travel all yr.
The closet race to me is 6 hours. And then they canceled 1 round to give it the endurance series.
So every race i go to cost my ass 1000$ or more and for what?
I get to race these nice big modern bikes while trying to VINTAGE Race.
Then i get to Tally and got that welcome wagon.
Man i race hard and i even road slicks in the rain to get points.
But cause they changed how it was from the last time i raced and well even the rule book does not have this best of 6 in it. it says best of 4 for vintage.
really go look it up.
You people piss me off buy attacking me on a forum.
you sit there and say im crying but yet you dont show up to race me( Randy)
You dont like me, who cares! Try and outrun me.
I had a budget to race this yr and im way past it. Now i find out i wasted my time and there is no way to meet the goal of trying beat the fastest guy in the class and win a title.
Guess thats ok.
So i see a problem to solve this and it will work for all and hurt no one. may even put a few more riders on grid that see this points system as a negative.
I would change 1 more thing while im on a bitch session. Id put the V-6 & V7 in other classes that the lap times are more compatible to not getting in each others way so we can race vintage bike against vintage bikes. Not modern bikes.
And you attack me. Let me very clear. ive been attacked all year.
Things have changed since last time i raced with WERA.
Im getting old, i started in 1990, i have a lifetime membership with WERA.
I came out to race and be competitive and run for the title.
I dont have a region in Texas, Been trying to get WERA back since 2003.
I have meet some nice people at the races, you know what all the guys agree about the points.
But the truth is Vintage is dieing. And if WERA does not do anything to get more bikes on the grid, Then it will be gone. I stopped racing CMRA cause they have a rule you do 1 lap and you get points.
I just agree you should not get something for nothing.
And the point system as it sit right now just handed the title to someone with out a fight on the race track points wise.
Go look at last yr and see how championship was settled. Yep he won cause other guys motor blew up.
Yep he won championship cause other guy didnt finish race.
If i show up and thats my only hope, LOL No thanks. I want to race him for it straight and that is how you decide a champion.
John hauls ass at barber and he has worked his ass of at getting better and faster. and there are others. Ray, Eboz, Dustin, Mitchell and if Burns shows up.
He is who i have to beat to be the best in V-7.
Me hoping he blows up is not what want and would be stupid of me.
He wants it as bad as i do. Thats a Champion.
Today i go finish up my motor as i ready myself.
If you cannot see that this ideal can help put more people on the grid.
Then im afraid your lost.
Id just like to have it equal before i even spend a dime.
It may look to you as im wuss or whatever.
But ask anyone who have ever met me. you are so wrong.
Im very passionate about this sport. Ive been doing longer than most of you and hell i was racing these bike when they where new.
I made the choice to race. i made the choice to continue after i did read rule book.
Even had Sean clarify it. and he did, it was the rest i figured that got me in trouble.
I just thought it was like old system.
I have taken responsibility for my mistakes and been attacked cause i even admitted it.
But get off my ass and lets see if we can make it better to get more people a chance to come race and if they choose to go after the title then can have a chance.

Steven Isenhower #52 2001 V6