Round 7 |MotoAmerica Superbikes at Alabama | SEP 18-20

I found it! hahah

 

Well we never got our Herrin v. Wyman podcast so we are lacking!

 

I still dont have enough of the story to talk about it without pissing everyone off . Plus that storyline seems to have fizzled. Maybe when they have a battle on track again.

 

Did you get to the part where he "strongly suggested" that M4 has been using a development ECU all season to skirt the sanctioned firmware rule, the same rule they lodged a protest against SBU for?

Can't make this shit up.

 

do did they follow the rules set forth my MotoAmerica or were they also illegal?

seems you’re very emotionally invested in a lot of incorrect information.

 

I guess you have it figured out.
Have you ever spectated at a WERA race? If not, you should. It may give you a different perspective on racing at all levels and what is involved from more than just a fan's point of view.
Come to the GNF and get some involvement with the racers and their pits. I'll be there and not racing this year. Come find me and hang out. I'll have beer.

 

You should read the rulebook. Here's the relevant parts either way.

Suzuki US lists the Marelli MLE as their homologated ECU, which falls under 2.4.9.1. Part (q) says "Factory teams may use any development firmware and software which will be made available to teams according to the update schedule."

The Motec 170 supposedly used by SBU falls under 2.4.9.2. Part (a) says "The system must be the MoTec M130 spec system with MotoAmerica approved activations" and part (n) says "Only firmware and software from the MotoAmerica approved software and firmware list may be used."

 

If that’s the case they should’ve lobbied for approval before they showed up, it’s pretty damn simple. I doubt “but Richard said it was ok to him” doesn’t fly. Plus regardless a lot of people Lee may be in front of also spent a shit ton of money getting parts within the rules, so why should a team with poor planning be able to field an illegal bike? Call it what you want but bend one rule for someone here, another for someone there then it’s out of control.
My summary of this is it sucked ass for Lee, he’s the one I feel the worst for. I’m not sure what the team thought would happen, those rules have been there for quite a while. I know more than one team that had to go buy a complete new bike off the floor just to get a couple trans gears because Covid had everything on back order. This is not a well funded team either but Instead of putting a bike that was illegal out there they didn’t want to take the risk, get caught and look like cheaters.
Was the trans in the bike a stock ratio one? Also what features were they using in the ecu? You can click a little button and turn them off in the software. At a minimum if I was then trying to lobby I’d have made the features, sample rates, etc exactly the same as the spec Motec and IIRC there is a way to electronically seal that without a firmware change. I’ll have it pull up the software later and double check.
You obviously are a bit butt hurt that a bike, clearly not within the rules, performance advantage or not wasn’t allowed to be out there. Letting bikes that are illegal race is the absolute dumbest thing I’ve heard as far as filling the grid, that would be a big reason why some riders and teams wouldn’t want to be on the grid. There’s a good reason a lot of too bad teams use them to built trans for them and it’s not just became of the ratio changes. If Lee was running 15th olive lap times maybe but obviously he was pretty quick.

 

Superbike unlimiteds response

 

Cool. I hope Freddy can get a rider with funding and get a season’s campaign together in the future.

 

Hopefully it will be Andrew lee

 

Well I just gained a fair amount of respect for him. Like I stated above they showed up with an illegal bike, sounds like they did the right thing with the ecu, took his punishment like a man as well as explained he knew the risk and took it. Plus he wants to make good on sponsor commitments without asking for more $, that folks is how you get bikes on the grid. People make mistakes and how you address them in a professional manner has a lot to do with keeping them engaged.
One crazy thing, how the f$ck does MA not check the firmware on the existing ECU’s in tech? You don’t need anything fancy to check firmware and if they didn’t have the program from Motec to do the checks (there is a software they have that will only pull model id, serial number, firmware etc out of the ecu but I’ve also seen when they didn’t have that they would have one tech from Motec at the track, with an official and a team member. They actually signed non disclosure agreements just in case someone flipped to the wrong screen and saw some settings in the ecu. MA not checking firmware is kind of crazy to me as it has a lot to do with what the ecu can do. Not much more you can do with the m130 than MA has allowed but if you are creative and I was playing with it last night on one that is wide open as far as features ,there is a few advantageous things you can do.
I’m actually going to be running one on my Excocet that’s wide open so somewhat like the GPR M130 and also has paddle shift options and drag races options. Someone did me a solid and opened it all up for me. The ECU’s in each line (ie all the m130’s), according to Motec guy who’s helped me are all the same just firmware locked which is a big way they make their money. I’d like to have the m170 mainly because of the wiring but for me and what I need I can’t use the bit of extra power it provides as there isn’t anything I need from it.
Not checking firmware on ECU’s, if that’s in fact a true statement is just quite mind boggling to me. It’s the most basic check besides visually looking and actually believing it’s actually even an m130. There has been more than a few teams that have been able to break into the ECU’s and change things but it will change the rev on the firmware. Im sure someone has tried to even get around that but my Motec guy said they have only found 1 person able to do that it was quite a task. I don’t know enough about that side of electronics to have a clue. I just know how to click buttons and input data. Mine works good on the test bench as I have all the sensors hooked up now just need to find the time to get the car together. The motor runs on the test stand now just need to get it together and get al if it working as I’m going to run the tc, engine braking, launch control, etc.

 

Back when i was building time attack cars. I used an older Motec M800 ECU in my turbo 13B RX7. I had actually bought it from a rotary drag race team, who had almost everything unlocked in it. I had previously used a Hatech E6K in the car (super old, I had to run an emulator and DOS on my laptop to interact with it, the injector drivers actually quit working on me, that's why I upgraded) The M800 was leaps and bounds better than any other ECU I had previously used. I was amazed at how much I could tweak and tune. The car idled better, tip in was smoother, and some safety control features were super helpful.. With rotary engines the big killer is heat and knock.. A piston engine can usually take a few solid pre-ignition events before you punch a hole in the piston, but a rotary will crack/break seals or put a dent in a rotor very easily.. I was running a mild port, T4 turbo and e85. (made around 375-400hp) This was 10 years ago when those numbers were respectable for a track car lol. I ended up in a cash crunch and sold all the Motec stuff to someone else who was actually using it for drag racing it. I ended up going with brand new Haltech Platinum stuff after that, but i was never as happy with it as I was with the Motec.

As far as SBU. I think Freddy will do right by Lee and every one else by taking responsibility, and offering to do what he can to represent sponsors again. he seemed like he made an actual effort to be up front about what was going on with his program.

Also, I haven't taken the time to go back through SBU's vlogs/blogs. However, weren't they originally running a Motec M130? and he even said when he upgraded to M170 that it wasn't MotoA legal? I could have sworn this was in a video, or maybe on their IG page?

As far as the transmission; do the ZX10R and the ZX10RR use the same cassette? If not, is it legal to run one or the other? I feel like an RR box may be hard to get a hold of. Especially if they have reliability issues like he mentioned. If the regular cassette is the same, or would have been legal, wouldn't it have been pretty easy for them to get a hold of one of those? They also relatively easy to change. (if they're cassette type like the zx6r)

One more thing on the topic of "its expensive to run MotoA Superbike" This isn't the best comparison.. However, taking the cost of the bike out of the equation because he's had the thing built for almost 2 years now. Other than tires, I don't quite understand the massive costs. its $350 a round for entry into MotoA Superbike. You get 3 40 minute practice sessions, 2 warm up sessions, Superpole (if you make it) and 2 races.. I don't know what kind of deal they get on the tires, but i'm sure that's the biggest cost. (other than crashing) I believe they're allowed 16 tires total in SBK. Depending on weather and available compounds I can see that being a different cost for every event.. Maybe $2000-3000..
When I run a double header weekend with WERA or CCS, I would typically run 4 classes a day with WERA and 4-6 classes a day with CCS. Depending on the track, I could have $750-1000 in event fees. I also try to use a new set of tires each day. (there are mixed opinions on this, but I can afford it, and I just use the takeoffs for track days, or practice sessions at a new track) so that brings my costs to about $1800-2000 every double header weekend.

I feel like I'm going to get taken to school for this and that's fine.. However, other than the cost of the actual bike, MotoA Superbike doesn't seem that much further out than someone trying to race as much as possible at a club level? At least until you get to the point where you have a lot of paid staff members.. But to just show up and run? The MotoA payouts seem pretty alright as well.. If you finish 15th both races, you're getting $2500 back in cost offset. (plus whatever contingency you may have). Like I said, I may be well out of pocket here.. But when I look at someone like Max Flinders and his family running on what they have, it doesn't seem that far out of reach.

Sorry for the morning rant/tangent.

 

I would love to, I'll have to try for next year and get the whole family down there. They're going to Laguna that weekend and taking the RV. I may have attended one or two in the late 90's early 2000's but I was little and can't remember.

 

There are a lot of SCCA and vintage road race club racers spending $4-$6k On tires in a weekend.

Nothing is cheap, but motorcycles are much cheaper in comparison. There are plenty of amateur car racers out there spending as much or more than some of the faster MA teams.

 

I’m sure Richard would not be that supportive of “illegal” bikes if they were beating Cameron.

 

I'm not sure that's an issue he ever has to worry about.

 

@Canadian Bacon MA Tech on Thurs checks for legality of safety items like case covers, rain light, and all the normal tech stuff. The rest of the legality is up to you. I’m sure an entrant could ask to have a part checked nearly any time all weekend as they are super helpful.

@Trainwreck Crew costs are significant and can be higher than tires. You need to fly them in, pay their entry, pay for hotel rooms, and feed them. And you may even pay some of them. The cheapest I ever did a flyaway was $6k in SS and I skimp on everything. My crew was volunteers and I didn’t buy my whole tire allocation. Add 2 more paid crew and an entire SBK tire allocation would easily get you to $10-15k

 

Richad had a few jabs to M4 in that podcast, also mentioned the extra 36cc and what not. I was already a big fan of his, but after all these interviews with him and how honest and open he is I became even more of a fan.

 

They way he reviewed the actual data how Cam was faster than Jake was great. Using actual lap record data even.