Religion question

This may anger some people, but it might just make them think as well.
First off, why do so many Christians view God as the ultimate good anyway? If they only look at the New Testament then maybe I can see that, but looking at the Old Testament, God does some pretty screwy things with his people.

For instance, 2 Samuel 24: 1-15 God gets angry with Israel and tells David to conduct a census. After David complies, God gets angry at him for doing it after he told him to and proceeds to punish the people. Not just David but all of Israel.

While it's not for me to question the motives involved, it doesn't seem quite fair to me.

Also, if you look at the chronilogically[\B] older books of the OT, there is NO mention of demons or satan. Everything, both good and evil are attributed to God.

Another passage, Deuteronomy 29:16-18 God tells his people to go into a land and kill every breathing thing so that they won't corrupt his people. Where were the 10 commandments here? It's okay to kill if I tell you to but no other time? Hmmmmm...

Just some things for you to ponder....

 

If Satanism assumes bad is actually good, would that qualify?

Or what about Shintoism? How good could God be if he's just a rock or a twig?

 

you may have answered your own question

 

Hmmm, that would explain the 'sons of God' mating(?) with women producing the giants in Genesis, would it not?

 

yep!

Something like that..........yes.

 

Papa

I recall reading - I think in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" - that the English word "good" is derived from "God". IE : God is good, good is God... it just completely dominates our cultures view of life and the world.

Very few would be free thinking enough to question a concept which is so pervasive - and the chance a group of such individuals would get together, feel strongly enough on the subject and agree broadly enough for them to establish a religion is even less likely. Even if they did, the "Church of the Passive God" would not attract much of a following as it would not provide level of pyschological support which humans require of their religions.

Now think about this, if God (or whatever ultimate authority you may choose to accept) is not inherently good, then upon what principle do you separate good from bad... and how could we function without that separation.

 

first off...why does god necessarily have to be inherently good. god inherently is. period. god exists. that's it. he is everything, including good AND bad. by definition, he MUST be, also, bad.

second...the 'principle' is manmade. a bunch o' whiny ass losers, much like politicians, got together knowing they had strength in numbers...they could force their will on those that had no need for their whiny ways by sheer number of masses. by bolstering themselves on the backs of the people, the other whiners, the losers balanced their fear of winners and spread that feeling amongst their supporters. if you ask me, they were merely afraid of what they did not understand...namely, an individual that didn't need/want their support/guidance.

third...the winners got nothing to prove. why would they waste time kicking the ass of the meek? they don't need some man with a badge to tell them they can't do something they have no inclination of doing in the first place. it wouldn't stop 'em if they wanted to, anyway. for example, i know showing up at your door and kicking your ass would be wrong if you hadn't provoked it but, laws protect people from such events, theoretically, 'cause people are afraid. if it's gonna happen, tho', it's gonna happen and there ain't a god-damn thing you can do about it...with one exception, don't bring it upon yourself. people are basically stupid, tho'. like lemmings when it comes to direction, people follow the loudest mouth. saying it loud don't make it right. ...and relying on someone else to protect you? that's what losers do. they are the only ones concerned with good and bad. you wanna call that 'functioning'? count me out.

 

I think what makes people disgusting are dingle balls on the ass hair.

 

Re: you may have answered your own question

In the Old Testament God is accused of doing some things that God doesn't do. There are many reasons for this. One is what theologians call "primary source" This means means God was seen as the only actor on the stage. Over time as biblical writers began to mature in the faith of "Yahweh"..(God's name in Hebrew), they began to see other sources of activity, such as man's free will and Satan. One of the best examples of this is where is it said "an evil spirit from the Lord afflicted King Saul with madness." "Evil" and "The Lord" are contradictory terms to us. At that time, however, that's all they knew. [/B][/QUOTE]


But what about the older "religions"? They had evil gods or demons or whatever in them. The early Hebrews had to know about evil beings if for no other reason than from these other religions. Many people who have studied religions believe that our god is based on the Canaanite god El, but El's son Baal was not only NOT accepted by Hebrews but thought of as evil. And what of all the "divine council" in the OT? Who exactly did god council with?

I feel like I'm being disrespectful questioning someone who, I'm sure, knows about religion than I do. But I'm sure of one thing; I'll definitely get some intelligent answers

 

Sort of off the subject but the chocolate thing is a myth, verified by the vet.

Carry on.

 

David was a great King and honored God in many ways but still went against God's rules. God disciplines Israel over and over because the people of Israel did not listen to him when he told them he was the One and Only God. Therefore, there is still no peace in the land.

Someone else brought this up...
In the study of the Old Testament God uses different ways to care for his people. He gives the Ten Commandments, he takes away food and water in the book of Hosea. He uses people's mistakes even David "the man after God's heart" to show us how God's children should honor God. They made him angry and he says so in Amos by worshipping everything but Him. God is a good God in the Old Testament. He made some pretty big statements about what he wanted to do to the people of Israel in the book of Hosea, but he had mercy on them and told them he loved them. Then in the New Testament he loved us even more and gave us Jesus and that is how he still cares for us today. God is just and he disciplines those that he loves. Ya have to read the entire Old Testament and study it chronologically to get a better grasp on how God worked with the wickedness. Taking one passage out of one section of the Bible makes it hard to understand.

I don't know the answer to suffering even with small children but he brings good from evil, like the story of Joseph and his brothers.

And finally I don't know the answer to the original question. But I somewhat believe what monkey man said about the passage from John. Also, when the blind man could finally see, he was no longer in the dark but in the light.

 

Laurie,

Let's look at an analogy:

Let's say that a father tells his son to do somthing that is wrong. The son, being obedient and unquestioning does what his father tells him to do. Then after he's done it, the father punishes not only the one son, but ALL his children for the thing that the son did that his father told him to do. Is there ANY way that you could look at that as being just and good?

Besides, if you read th Bible, in the first census story, GOD told David to do it, but in the second and later story, SATAN tells David to do it. To me, that shows that even the writers of the Bible didn't view this as something good, that's why they changed it from God to Satan. (Look at 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21)

 

Thanks for the compliment

But what about the older "religions"? They had evil gods or demons or whatever in them. The early Hebrews had to know about evil beings if for no other reason than from these other religions. Many people who have studied religions believe that our god is based on the Canaanite god El, but El's son Baal was not only NOT accepted by Hebrews but thought of as evil. And what of all the "divine council" in the OT? Who exactly did god council with?

I feel like I'm being disrespectful questioning someone who, I'm sure, knows about religion than I do. But I'm sure of one thing; I'll definitely get some intelligent answers [/B][/QUOTE]


Thanks for the compliment......although I'm the first to admit I don't know all the answers.....Also you are not being disrespectful. You are asking questions and expecting reasonable answers. There is nothing wrong with that

My take on this question comes from something in the NT book of Romans, written by the Apostle Paul. Paul says that all men know of God, if from nothing else the world around them and the order it has.

Man has been looking for God since the beginning of time, Most if not all major faith groups begin with the premise of man taking the initiative in the search.The ancient religions you mention apparently had this in common....looking for a God who would protect them form the demons and evil beings. Christian faith is different in that after the Fall of Man in the creation stories (there are two distinct stories in the book of Genesis), God takes the initiative to restore relationship with man. This idea has its highest profile in Christ's death and ressurection. God in Chrsit coming to us to restore relationship.

Now specifically to the idea of evil beings and demons; This kinda goes back to the idea of primary source. It was once thought that God or Satan or outside actors were the cause of every human malady. In the light of history and medical knowledge it can be seen that many things attributed to demons and etc were actually medical problems that were unknown at the time. For instance, I mentioned Saul being attacked by "an evil spirit from God" Modern Doctors have looked at this passage and determined that Saul probably suffered from Manic Depressive Disorder, which explains quite well his destructive mood swings.
Also the man posessed by seven demons that Jesus encountered probably had Multiple Personality Disorder (like Sybil)...which explains why he had "seven demons" in him.

As to your question about the divine counsel, I admit ignorance. I do not know what they are talking about. It could be an oral tradition that worked its way into Hebrew writings or any number of things.

Keep asking questions....I don't mind. Also Tony Pentecost and Laurie Acree have given you some good answers too on this post.
If you are oging to be at Jennings for the National maybe we can together over dinner one night, I enjoy discussing theology. Its a fascinating discipline.

 

Re: Thanks for the compliment

if you think of medical problems as punishment (justified or not) handed out by God, Satan or outside actors... I can't think of how to finish that sentence. I have a point to make, but I can't get to it. Dang it. Maybe someone can finish it for me.

Anyway, lots of interesting information and points of view here, confirming what I told Cinderella sometime ago in this discussion.

 

No I don't

I don't see illness or injury as God's judgment on man. Jesus refuted that idea himself when comforted by why a certain man was born blind in the Gospel of John............Illness and injury come from what's called "natural evil" in theology. This means that in living we are exposed to events or things that can hurt us, car wrecks, mud slides, earthquakes, carcinogins etc.

Three years ago I got quite upset when Dale Earnhardt died in the Daytona 500. People kept saying it was "his time".........Bull!!!
The man chose to be in a dangerous sport and unfortunately it caught up with him. Is it a "baby's time" when it contracts AIDS from its mother? Hardly.......The child's life and potential was snuffed out by another's mistake.

There's a lot of supersiition and fear in religion. Superstitution and fear that has no place there.

Faith has its mysteries to be sure, and as my Father used to say, "God is on his throne"---- or is in charge....but we need to get away from these funky superstitious ideas. Chriatian faith has hurt itself by perpetuating many of them.

 

Re: Thanks for the compliment

My take on this question comes from something in the NT book of Romans, written by the Apostle Paul. Paul says that all men know of God, if from nothing else the world around them and the order it has.

I have no doubts that they had an idea about God in the OT. My question was why did they attribute everything, both good and evil to him. They obviously knew about evil in the form of supernatural beings; ie, Baal and many others dieties of people around them. Even knowing that, they regarded everything good and evil as coming from God.

Christian faith is different in that after the Fall of Man in the creation stories (there are two distinct stories in the book of Genesis), God takes the initiative to restore relationship with man. This idea has its highest profile in Christ's death and ressurection. God in Chrsit coming to us to restore relationship.

The two stories of the fall are very different indeed. In the first, God is very transcendental. He only speaks to create everything and has very little to do with man. The second, he actually plays in the dirt to create things and speaks to man many times. Although, I'd have to say that over time, direct communication with God only lessens until Jesus.

For instance, I mentioned Saul being attacked by "an evil spirit from God" Modern Doctors have looked at this passage and determined that Saul probably suffered from Manic Depressive Disorder, which explains quite well his destructive mood swings.
Also the man posessed by seven demons that Jesus encountered probably had Multiple Personality Disorder (like Sybil)...which explains why he had "seven demons" in him.

That's what I'm talking about...an evil spirit from GOD not from Satan or anyone else. The writers of the Bible saw God not only as doing good but also evil. Like I posted in reply to Laurie, a story in one book says God tells David to take the census, but the later story has changed it to Satan telling him to do it. It's like they recognized that it was something evil and instead of leaving the story alone, they changed it to suit the beliefs they had at the time.


As to your question about the divine counsel, I admit ignorance. I do not know what they are talking about. It could be an oral tradition that worked its way into Hebrew writings or any number of things.

There are verses all over the Bible that mention "other" dieties or just the word "us" in such a way as to be very confusing. I don't think anyone can ever be 100% sure of what it means, but I have to admit that I have some ideas that I'm sure would be considered heresy.


I'd love to have a theological discussion with you but I'm sure I won't be going to Jennings. I may get a chance to go to Summit, VIR or possibly even Atlanta but it all depends on my schedule and where my husband is racing. I'll definitely let you know though I love religion and debating on various things about it.

And Papa, I'm sorry for getting so far off your original subject. I'll do some more research, but so far the only things I've found have been the ancient religions, although there are many modern ones (many Jews will tell you about arguing with God) where the god(s) aren't considered completely good.

 

Which version are you reffering to? I have never studied the version of the writer changing it from God to Satan. That's new to me so I can't answer that with knowledge. I study the NIV (New International Version).

I don't understand the analogy either. Sorry. Maybe it's the Allegra warping my brain.

Just my personal experience, I like to study the Old Testament but for today's application I try not to get caught up on the mistakes of the people from that time and for that matter I don't apply God's judgement on the Israelites to my life. God has never hurt me or my family by judgement and we receive so many blessings that we don't deserve. God sent Jesus to give us an example to live by so I try to focus on that.

 

I usually avoid these threads, mainly cause everybody wants to argue, but this thread shows that many of you want to learn, or seek out the truth. I by no means state that I know everything or anything for that matter, but like a lot of you have shown, am seeking the truth. So I am responding to the below questions as a possibility of an answer.


"I have no doubts that they had an idea about God in the OT. My question was why did they attribute everything, both good and evil to him. They obviously knew about evil in the form of supernatural beings; ie, Baal and many others dieties of people around them. Even knowing that, they regarded everything good and evil as coming from God."

I believe that they only considered God as the only Being in control. In their belief, only God can allow things to happen. Satan or man can do something only if God allows it. So by that explaination, God is in control & is the one responsible.

"That's what I'm talking about...an evil spirit from GOD not from Satan or anyone else. The writers of the Bible saw God not only as doing good but also evil. Like I posted in reply to Laurie, a story in one book says God tells David to take the census, but the later story has changed it to Satan telling him to do it. It's like they recognized that it was something evil and instead of leaving the story alone, they changed it to suit the beliefs they had at the time. "

I think both of these questions are one in the same, so the same answer could apply.

"There are verses all over the Bible that mention "other" dieties or just the word "us" in such a way as to be very confusing. I don't think anyone can ever be 100% sure of what it means, but I have to admit that I have some ideas that I'm sure would be considered heresy."

I think we may be forgetting about the "Trinity" of God. God, his Son, & The Holy Ghost.


Please don't stop with the discussion, It is so refreshing to see others seeking the truth & questioning religion without someone responding "its the way it is, so accept it."

 

Laurie,
I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure those two verses should be changed in the NIV. I have the NSRV and a professor pointed out the difference in her Hebrew Bible, so I'm pretty sure that it's originally different.